Hell finally freezes over... 'Justice League' Snyder Cut getting released!!!

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by The Hermit, May 20, 2020.

  1. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

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  2. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

    Apparently, Snyder's cut runs a whopping 214 minutes... I'm certainly game for this m.

    It can't be any worse than the released theatrical cut, right?

    Now next up, studio guys... can we talk about Joel Schumacher's 160-minute Batman Forever director's cut, or the 115-minute director's cut of 1998's The Avengers... both also WB films... you're on a roll now guys, don't stop here!!!
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
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  3. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Ah, @The Hermit beat me by a couple of hours!

    I think this is a remarkable development. I have it on good authority that it'll cost at least $20 million to finish all the VFX for the version that Snyder shot, plus they have to re-edit and remix the entire thing, plus a final round of color correction, so it'll take a lot of work to whip it into shape.

    I didn't hate Joss Whedon's version of Justice League, but I also didn't think it was very good. I'm unconvinced that this is gonna be any better in terms of story or content. I'm also not a fan of pushing Superman in a world that's grungy, ugly, dark, and depressing. But if only for fan service, I'm glad to see Warner Bros. respond and give people what they've been asking for. And I'll absolutely buy this on Blu-ray, if only for the curiosity factor. (Still, I sincerely doubt it'll make any money.)

    The good news is: at least we'll get to see Henry Cavill with his real upper lip, so there is that.

    [​IMG]

    Yikes...

    Justice League effects artist finally explains Superman's moustache: 'We were like, WTF is this?!'
     
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  4. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    Well, HBO Max is gonna have a lot of programming hours to fill, and as the streaming arm of AT&T, the CW, and Warner Bros., they have a pretty big library to draw upon. Since they won't be able to get any new films done for at least 6 months (and maybe more like a year), maybe there's some sense in re-visiting previous films and creating longer versions.

    I worked on the extended version of Oliver Stone's 1995 film Nixon, and we went absolutely crazy diving into every box and looked at every single piece of discarded negative, print, and IP that survived. It was an absolute nightmare stitching it all together. I was not happy with the final color on the whole thing, but I did the best I could with it. I was shocked when the Blu-ray reviews came out and nobody commented on the "patchy" nature of the scenes and the color, so I guess we did OK.

    But it's always hard to go back and pick up the pieces for films that were already locked and released. The longer you wait, the worse it gets, because all the material gets tossed to the winds. The studios like to pretend they hold on to everything, but the reality is a lot of stuff gets lost in the cracks and never gets found. There are rare cases like the extended version of The Blues Brothers where director John Landis prodded Universal into finally finding the original 1980 preview print of the 2-1/2 hour version of the film, and it was in good enough shape that they could plug in the missing scenes for which they had lost the negative.

    I also went on a 2-week "treasure hunt" for 20th Century-Fox where we looked high and low for all the pieces of the long version of Cleopatra, but the problem there was there were a lot of scenes for which we had picture and no soundtrack, and other scenes where we had sound and no picture. And some scenes where we had neither. When stuff got thrown out in 1963, it's very hard to locate it 30-40 years later. As far as I know, they were never able to complete the original director's cut of that film.
     
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  5. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

    Nixon is Olly Stone's unsung masterpiece, in my opinion... a remarkable and very fair appraisal of a very complex and controversial historical figure. It's also one of those films that has seemingly been forgotten about over time... I swear, I don't think I've saw it on television (terrestrial or cable) in the UK - prior to my emigrating a few years ago - since the late 1990's. I'm presuming that was the theatrical cut... what's the director's cut like, Marc, better or worse? Olly Stone seems to be one of those filmmakers that just can't leave his films alone sometimes... the theatrical cuts of JFK and Alexander were easily the superior ones, for example.

    If I remember correctly from a really rather fantastic 'making of' documentary about Cleopatra (broadcast on TCM, I think?), director Joseph Mankiewicz wanted it to be two movies - one concentrating on Cleo and Caesar, the other on Cleo and Mark Anthony - but the studio refused... what a pity too; one would think considering the cost of that behemoth, two films might have made more sense, commercially if not also creatively, alas... is that what the restoration you were working on was planning initially, Marc?

    I think it's crazy that WB - and give 'em credit for doing this - will shell out between 20 and 30 million big ones to finish an alternative cut to a film that roundly flopped and which the studio (at least under former CEO Kevin Tsujihara) would rather forget, yet they won't allow Joel Schmacher to complete his director's cut of Batman Forever (which ran over two-and-a-half hours), and which needs relatively little work done by comparison (it was for all intents and purposes a completed cut, shown to journalists prior to the film's June 1995 theatrical release) and Schumacher says he'll do it for free... if it was just a one-and-done film, that's one thing, but it's part of WB's crown jewel franchise... if FOX can restore Alien 3 then why not WB and Batman Forever!?

    With regards the Snyder Cut of JL, there's mixed reports about how 'finished' it was... I've heard that Snyder all but completed his preferred 214-minute edit, VFX work was already at an advanced stage, Junkie XL (by his own admission) had recorded the score, some of the principle actors' ADR was done (Gal Gadot said she had completed her's), but Snyder had to then deliver a shorter theatrical rough cut (which he did) and prep for the inevitable reshoots... the latter of which never happened under his watch as (depending on whom you talk to) he was either fired first or left after his daughter's suicide... who knows?

    Consider the need to finish and polish VFX work, final editing and ADR, mixing, grading, etc... $20-30m sounds about right to me, a layperson admittedly...

    I'll say one last thing though; the fact this version is actually seeing daylight shows the power of the persistent, vocal fanbase... and that's a double-edged sword if ever there was one, considering some of the nutcases in that base!!!
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    It's 28 minutes longer, I think. I despised Nixon when he was President, but the movie made me pity him as being just a paranoid nutball who made many crucial mistakes.

    Yes, that's what we were looking for about 1997-1998 in the LA Fox vaults. About a decade later, Schawn Belston at Fox was able to find a lot of the original 65mm Cleopatra camera negatives in vaults in London and Rome (as I was told), and they were able to piece together a 4-hour HD version of the film for release in 2013, using an old cutting continuity script as a guide. At one point, there was said to be a 5-1/2 hour version back in 1963, but that was long gone.

    If WB pulls the Justice League project all in-house (which they most likely will do), they could keep the costs relatively modest. I'm of the opinion that sometimes, the vocal fans won't necessarily be happy getting what they ask for. I'm reminded of the fans who voted on Snakes on a Plane, and a bunch of their ideas -- including the title -- were incorporated, but the film still tanked. I think there are enough conceptual problems with the film that will prevent it from being a success. I also think the superhero films that have been successful benefitted from great planning, really good ideas, and a strong director who knows what they want. I think there was a lot of muddled thinking with the last few "DC Universe" films, and that worked against them. I didn't totally like the Chris Nolan Dark Knight films, but I recognized that those were really good mass-market films that would make a lot of money, and they did.

    I also think the WB execs desperate to try to imitate the success of Marvel's Cinematic Universe, and it was extremely frustrating that they seemed on paper to hit the same bullet points, but the end results were never as good. And they could never create a cohesive world in which you could believe all these characters existed at the same time. I said several times that after a few bombs, they'd fire CEO Kevin Tsujihara, but ultimately what proved to be his undoing were some MeToo® scandals. I think the fact that the Snyder movies were box office disappointments did not help.
     
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  7. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

    ... and had many great, longstanding successes too (ending the Vietnam War, engaging communist China, etc). Far from the right-wing bogeyman he's been portrayed as over the last five decades, Nixon was moderate by today's Republican standards... ditto JFK with current Democrat standards.

    He was, by all accounts, a more complex, multi-faceted, and tortured soul than a mere "paranoid nutball"... but hey, I wasn't born until two years after his resignation and I'm not American so I'll defer to your opinion on that one.

    One moment I always remember from Olly Stone's Nixon is the poignant scene where 'Tricky Dicky' looks up at a portrait of Kennedy in the White House and says, "when they look at you, they see who they want to be... when they look at me, they see who they are..." Terrific scene and a very underrated, criminally-forgotten movie.

    ***Back to original topic***​

    I'm certainly not expecting the JL Snyder Cut to be some newly-restored masterpiece - although he came damned close with Watchmen - but I'll certainly give it a whirl once it hits release... if it's at least solid, I'll be satisfied... Snyder is a top-notch visual stylist and has genuine popcorn blockbuster directing chops, so count me interested in this one...
     
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  8. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    I thought Snyder's Watchmen had moments that were great, but I took exception with the changes he made from the comic, particularly the ending. It's another example of a well-made film that I think got mixed critical reviews and didn't do well at the box office (cost $140M, made $180M, which is way low).

    The TV version of Watchmen I thought was fantastic, and I had no problem at all with it. But they had the advantage of telling a 9-hour story and going off into a much more complicated tale than the film, and I thought it was exceptionally well-done.

    The Snyder Cut of Justice League is already getting some negative press, because writers are pointing out that there are always multiple versions of films out there and it may not necessarily be what people really want to see. Editing is a highly-subjective area, and it's very typical on a film like this that you'd have the editor's cut, the director's cut, the producer's cut, and the studio's cut, and then they sit in a room and yell at each other and figure out what to keep and what to drop. And I know of cases where the studio secretly brought in a second editor (!!!) to cut together a still-different version. Famously, WB had eight versions of the 2004 Catwoman movie cut together, and it was an absolutely nightmare: the movie tanked and the director never worked again, and I think it didn't help Halle Berry's career.

    Justice League could be more complicated, since Snyder originally planned it as two separate 2-hour movies. How they're gonna do that, I dunno, but one proposed plan is to use all the footage, shoot some new material, and flesh it out to basically a 6-hour or even an 8-hour TV series, which is entirely possible. Maybe it'll work better that way.

    Will the 'Justice League' Snyder Cut Actually Deliver What Fans Asked For?
     
  9. Holerbot6000

    Holerbot6000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    California
    I think this is kind of exciting. it seems 99% of the time when there is an 'alternate' cut out there, it's the director's original vision that didn't survive studio interference, cutting for time, etc. With the advent of all these streaming channels, the potential success or failure of these endeavors seems to be less of an issue, as is runtime, compared to theatrical releases. My impression was that Peter Jackson always planned on releasing an extended cut of LOTR to DVD from the get go. This is somewhat of a different circumstance but imagine if David Lynch were making Dune today - the f'd up theatrical cut could be made but the original 4 hour epic could still be viewed elsewhere. Maybe we'll see a reduction in these rumored 'lost' film cuts we always hear about.

    Also I think the streaming wars are causing a serious need for content both to fill hours and differentiate providers, which I am sure was a factor here.
     
  10. Matthew

    Matthew Forum Resident

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    Jammin' at Sun
    Very pleased with this news, if only to have a coherent completion to the story set out with Man of Steel and BvS.

    Justice League as it was released, despite some of its moments became a sort of nothing movie.

    I wonder if the pandemic and inability to film new movies and TV shows will prompt other desired projects to happen, such as restoring Star Trek: Deep Space Nine to HD.
     
  11. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Sultan Of Snark

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    Central PA
    You buried the lead. This is the next thread, in the making.
     
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  12. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Sultan Of Snark

    Location:
    Central PA
    Sitting in the CBS AllAccess offices of his new Facepalm Productions suite, Executive Producer Rick Berman had this to say about his "bold new re-imagination": "I had always envisioned DS9 as a 17-season Klingon opera, from Day One. Now that Lin Manuel Miranda, and the entire cast of Glee who haven't been signed as superheroes over on the WB are available for re-shoots..."

    :D
     
  13. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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  14. vince

    vince Stan Ricker's son-in-law

    Kev & Marc talk to Affleck about the Snyder Cut!!
     
  15. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
  16. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
  17. CraigBic

    CraigBic Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Zealand
    I think it will be interesting to watch the film, see what changes are made, etc. but I'm just not convinced that this film is suddenly going to be amazing. Snyder will have the advantage of knowing what worked and what didn't but will that mean he knows how to fix it?
     
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  18. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

    I like the ambiguous ending of Watchmen - both graphic novel and film - so I prefer to leave the story on that note... sometimes what is not seen thereafter (or before) is better than what is seen, and that's one of 'em!

    That being said, if they wanted to do a Watchmen limited event series, they should have adapted the 'Before Watchmen' prequel comic Minutemen to the screen... that was really rather good, actually... and I'm no fan of prequels, generally speaking...
     
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  19. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
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    I'd much rather they do the Tim Burton/Nic Cage Superman.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    I liked the Minuteman segments as well, and actually preferred them to the rest of Zack Snyder's film.
     
  21. carrick doone

    carrick doone Whhhuuuutttt????

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Eight versions and they went with the one released? Wow. I had a friend who worked on it and she said everyone could tell it was bad while they were shooting. I guess you just get that vibe or see things you don't see being done in good movies. I recently saw half of it. It's TERRIBLE on every level...
     
  22. Mirrorblade.1

    Mirrorblade.1 Forum Resident

    I seen a video of Darkside , it was cool.. he's only character I like.
     
  23. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    I asked a friend of mine who was involved with the color, and he said, "all eight versions of Catwoman were terrible. There was no way to save this picture." I always say, If the script ain't good, it's all downhill from there. It's rare that they truly don't know during production that the movie is bad.
     
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  24. agentalbert

    agentalbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    I'm interested in this, but skeptical the movie can actually be made good with just a different cut. But I'm looking forward to it. I liked MoS from the start, but pretty much hated Batman Vs. Superman: Dawn Of Justice when I first saw it. The longer cut I found a slog to get through and didn't like it much more, but I've come to appreciate it and the full story. Wonder Woman was great, and the released Justice League just seemed a miss. I've watched it a few times and not liked it any better.

    But why am I seeing articles like these?

    Why Releasing the 'Justice League' Snyder Cut Sets A Dangerous Precedent
    Why Releasing the 'Justice League' Snyder Cut Sets a Dangerous Precedent

    Is Releasing the Snyder Cut of Justice League a Victory For Toxic Fandoms?
    Is Releasing the Snyder Cut of Justice League a Victory for Toxic Fandoms?

    Are these complete outliers, or are there really people dragging this into Star Wars territory, and the nauseating back and forth that exists there regarding the fan bases? When I first heard the news on this (not having followed any campaign about getting the cut released), I thought it could only be good news. So its surprising to see this may be controversial, or is it just a few angry Twitter voices getting amplified into a made up controversy?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 1:51 PM
  25. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976 Thread Starter

    Because the writers of those articles are ideologically-driven morons, that's why... not to mention being very selective in their facts... there's always the nutcases in every and any movement...

    The 'Snyder Cut' fandom at large didn't bully or harass anyone, didn't picket or protest, didn't threaten a boycott, didn't try to intimidate advertisers, and didn't get personal with WB executives' families... in other words, all the things that so-called 'liberal' activists do on a regular basis in furthering their ideology!!! I thought lefties were all for activism... or is that only when it reflects their particular beliefs???

    I think the studio just decided that there was a growing market and momentum for the 'Snyder Cut' in addition to needing compelling new content for their streaming service, and thus explored the possibilities of finishing and releasing Snyder's would-be version... I wish Lucasfilm was so responsive to fan demands... we in all likelihood would have got properly-remastered releases of the OT theatrical versions by now, alas... and they would cost but a mere fraction to produce what WB is evidently going to spend on the JL 'Snyder Cut'...

    It's not going to be some masterpiece once released, let's be clear about that, but I'm game to give it a whirl when it hits the street... anything would be an improvement over the theatrical cut...
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 3:55 PM
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