Help choosing between Audio Note Lexus and ISIS speaker cables

Hi Everyone,

Long time reader, first time poster. I've very much appreciated the forum over the years.

I could use some help with speaker cables. I've decided to switch over to an Audio Note based system. The cables would be used with some AN-E/Spe HE's. The runs would be 3m/10ft each.

I'm looking at copper cables at this time. So my options are:

Lexus XL, twin cable, single wire
2 runs per side, one for each polarity. Jumpers between LF & HF.

Isis, twin cable, single wire
2 runs per side, one for each polarity. Jumpers between LF & HF.

I'm trying to understand the sonic difference between Lexus XL and Isis speaker cables. There doesn't seem to be much info online comparing the two. I've read the ISIS cables have better bottom end and greater detail, but can't find how big of jump this is. Is it a subtle improvement, or a large one?

I should also clarify, that budget comes into play here. Price wise, Lexus is much more affordable at this time. ISIS would be a stretch. Not sure if that money is better saved for elsewhere (amps), or if I should just save longer and jump straight to isis cables.

Any help you could offer would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Nick.

 

I can't compare the two, I went for the Lexus right off the bat. I have Lexus bi-wire, connected to a pair of AN- J SPe Hemp. My run is a bit longer than yours and were not terribly expensive.

Which raises a couple of questions for you: Why jumpers? What amplification are you looking at acquiring?

I do have both Lexus and ISIS interconnects and I can say there is an audible difference between the two - just more of everything with the ISIS.


With AN-E SPe HE, if it were me, I'd go for the ISIS.

 

I have both Isis and Lexus speaker cables. In my opinion, the main differences are exactly what you heard from others—-Isis has better bass and greater detail—-but the gap between them is pretty large. I find the Isis much more satisfying.

You won’t want to hear this but I also have SPx cables and there is an even bigger gap between Isis and SPx.

 

Thanks for the info. Right now I have a few integrated amps. I still have a Blue Circle integrated kicking around. I previously had Blue Circle separates (a BC3 and BC24).

I'm also trying out a Technics SU-G30 (it's Gan Fet, essentially their reference scaled down). It was strongly recommended to me by someone with a Kondo Ongaku. I normally don't go for anything like this, but I trust him. The amp is still breaking in, with about 100 hours. I'll probably make a thread about it, but it's changed my mind on class D. It's very good so far... I'm still making up my mind though. More to come.

I was thinking about buying an Oto SE Sig, when I decided to try the Technics. The closest AN dealer is a day away. At some point I'd like to compare the two. I would be happy to switch if it's better. Although, this doesn't change the length of speaker cables I need.

Long term I'd like to move towards a level 3/4 system, probably based around the 2a3. So maybe an Empress, or the Neiro? We'll see what shows up on the used/demo market. I also like the 45, so I'd try that if the right amp comes along. I read the 211 is great, but I haven't heard one yet.

I think I will upgrade to silver cables with the switch to mono blocks, As then I can get away with very short runs. Buying an extra 2m (or 4m) worth of Spe/Spx makes a good dent in the price of the monoblocks. So in the meantime, I'd rather not sink to much money into copper cables.

I would be curious if you could expand on the difference between the interconnects? How big of jump is it? A little, or a lot?

In terms of bi-wiring. Based on what I've read, people are split over single over it. Some like it, while others prefer the coherence of a single run with the silver jumpers. Since biwiring doubles the cost of the cables, I think I will pass for now. As I don't want to split the Lexus 96 strands into 48/48. I could split an Isis 168 to 84/84, but that might negate much of it's benefit?

Thanks for the info, that is helpful. I am waffling over the Isis as it's 3.5x the cost. It sounds like you think the Isis is worth the price jump.

In terms of silver (as I shared above) long term I'd like to go silver. Probably after I make the jump to AN monoblocks. How do you find the bass on the SPx compares to the Lexus and Isis? I've read the bass is lacking until you get to the Sogon? No? Or are you bi-wiring with the SPx?



Side question: Should I have posted this in the Fans of Audio note thread?

 

Absolutely, there'll be lots of people with experience with different Audio Note cabling.
I have Spe cables with my AN-E Spe He -speakers and looking forward to hear how ISIS-cables compare as jump to Spx is pretty high, price wise.

 

Value is a hard thing for another person to assess, but I would say the Isis speaker cable is a substantial step above the Lexus and well worth it if you can stretch that far.

I don't know where you may have heard that bass is lacking with SPx speaker cable, but that is certainly not my experience. Not only is the entire bass range tighter and more detailed than Isis (and even more so compared to Lexus), but the bass with SPx seems to extend deeper than either of the copper cables as well.

 

I have said this elsewhere so I apologize if it sounds familiar, but in the Audio Note cable lines there is not always a clear progression from one cable to the next. In other words, the next more expensive cable may not always be an improvement especially when switching from a copper to a silver cable. In going from Lexus to Isis speaker cables (or from a Lexus to Isis interconnect), there is a significant improvement with really no downsides. Going from Isis copper speaker cables to SPx silver speaker cables results in a very different sound, and it's conceivable somebody could prefer the copper over the silver in a particular system. I suspect the choice between Isis and a less expensive AN silver cable might involve even more compromises.

Similarly an Audio Note copper interconnect may be preferred over a silver in a given system. I prefer Isis interconnect on my SUT over AN-Vx or Sogon. And a friend prefers AN-Vx over Sogon for his preamp to amp link.

There really is no substitute for trying out cables in your own system and making your own decisions.

 

Well, if you're considering a move to monoblocks, it may just make sense to wait especially, if you have spare speaker cables you can use in the interim.

I have the AN OTO Phono SE Sig currently. I've never owned a Technics. I went from Luxman to a GamuT D2000 (demo) to AN Quest Silver mono's with a AN M2 to the OTO.

In the previous systems, I had a run of Analysis Plus Oval 9 speaker cables and with the Quest's/M2 - I had An Vx interconnects. I preferred the copper cables to the speakers and the AN Vx to the sources and amp and pre.

I'm inclined now to keep the number of boxes to a minimum (fewer cables and less expense to deal with) but that could change. Now pondering a move to a Meishu Tonmeister Phono in an attempt to recapture the M2/Quest magic.

Absolutely!

 

@Nick_w l looked at Lexus speaker cable for my K/LX and baulked at the price, just a left field thought l plumbed some Tellurium Q black loudspeaker cable in to my system and got a rather nice increase in sound quality, previously l had Van Damme 6mm Studio Series in there, and for what the Tellurium Q Black cost l am very happy with the increase in performance for a lot lower cost of AN Lexus, just a thought.

Good luck!

 

Thanks, I may post over there. Plus sit down with glass of scotch and start reading the thread.

 

You're right, the value question is a difficult one. Thank you for the information you've provided so far. I may lean towards the ISIS. I'm going to back up and give the situation and upgrade path a good think.

I'm still learning, so that you for sharing the info about the silver cables. It's good to know. I would love to demo first if possible.

 

The mono blocks are likely a few years away. Unless something shows up demo/used...

My current speaker cables aren't long enough, as they were sized for my previous speakers which sit well into the room, not the corners. Right now I'm using generic speaker wire to tide me over (I just received the An-E's this week). The switch to AN is a new thing. The idea with the Lexus cables was, they could last me a few years until I can make the switch to monoblocks. However, now that I'm considering the Isis cables, I think they would have a more permanent place in the system.

With your amps, I can understand the desire to keep things simple. Part of me thinks about higher end integrateds as well, for the same reason as you. I've toyed with the idea of a Jinro. I'm torn between the simplicity and flexibility.

I'm curious how you found the shift to the Oto SE Sig, coming from the M2/Quests? I've read good things about the Meishu Tonemesiter, but haven't heard one.

 

I believe Steve H has a Jinro. You might want to get his views and impressions on that integrated. The shift from the M2/Quest wasn't exactly voluntary - long story short, it involved a messy divorce and a move into a smallish apartment.

I like the EL84 sound and have often wondered if Audio Note could build a EL84 integrated and incorporate the M2 and P2 SE in the same chassis versus the current M1 and P1 SE combo.

I've heard the Meishu Phono Tonmeister at my dealer's and was thoroughly impressed. IMHO the Meishu Phono Tonmesiter sounded better to my ears than my earlier 2005 M2/Quest combination, undoubtedly due to better parts quality and new circuit design.

If I were to go the separates route, PQ has suggested that I consider the M2 balanced with a P3 Tonmeister.

 

If your plan is to one day buy Silver cables then buy he cheaper Lexus or even lower cable to get you by until that time. That is why I bough the E/Lx speaker instead of the E/SPe HE speaker because all any E is an E and then I waited until I could afford the one I really wanted.

That is the same with anything really. Get something but if you have level 4 as a goal then it makes sense to just get something doable. Nothing wrong with Lexus - heck I picked up a pair of AN E-D for review purposes because I wanted a copper run of cable with spade connections and I figure it's probably as good as most other brands making a copper speaker cable.

And yes my dealer in Hong Kong also notes that many customers prefer a single speaker cable and the upgraded jumpers so a combination of a single run of Lexus but with an SPx jumper might sound better than biwiring.

Unfortunately, I have not tried any of this - I use an older set of single run of SPe cables but connect the cables across - so red on the left black on the right. Some folks said this sounds better - meh I don't hear any difference although I have not critically listened to it doing this - if there is a difference it's not one that I find jaw dropping.

But again if your plan is a higher level system spend as little as possible now to get you by. If I had bough the SPe HE speaker I would not have been able to afford the SPx AlNiCo when it came up as a dealer demonstrator.

Put it this way - the sound I get in my system blows away the systems I heard at CAS in 2017 and 2019 and all of the demonstrations I have heard at Soundhounds and my dealer in Hong Kong. And my set-up only uses SPe and Lexus and the Arm 3 IC (which I think is AN V). All those other venues use way way more expensive cables like Sogon etc. Basically you just don't want cables to screw things up or lie by omission. Cables can't fix inferior products. So if it's Neiro with ISIS - or Empress with Sogon - I'm taking Neiro/Isis. If it's TT3 with AN V that beats TT2 with SOGON.

Cables are kind of the modifiers the extraction once everything else is in place ESPECIALLY when either Lexus or ISIS are merely placeholders.

The next thing I will try is the SPx jumper or perhaps higher if it is not too ludicrous. But this is high end speaker world and I always keep Gerard Rejkind's (UHF Magazine in Canada) words in the back of my my mind - Cable selling "Safer than Stealing and Easier than Working" - Yes cables make a difference - but be extra EXTRA cautious - I would not buy them unheard on the word of dealers and forums or reviewers. Some people like the jumpers better but others like the biwiring sound better. And the only way to know which is best is to listen. And if you can't then go the cheaper route.

 

Thanks Richard.

I would like to buy silver eventually. But it's journey and it will take years. I've been out the game for about 10 years. So it's good to be back.

Thanks for the confirmation with single wiring. I'm going to do this to start. I like the idea of SPx jumpers. I wonder where I can get some? Perhaps an offcut from somewhere. I wouldn't need very much, perhaps 8" or so.

I can understand wanting to keep costs down, and trying to make as straight of shot to the final system. Sort of a "start with your endgame" approach. That would be ideal if possible.

Although most of use need a few stepping stones along the way. It's too bad the Oto SE doesn't offer a pre-amp out. It would make it more attractive, as then one could add power amps later. Rather than having to bite off both a pre-amp and mono blocks all at the same time.

I'm curious about the Oto SE Silver Signature. I read a post where Bob Neil said the Silver Sig versions are always a big upgrade over the Sig. Although he wasn't specifically talking of the Oto. Any experience with it Oto SE Silver Sig? Part of me wants to order one unheard. I've been wondering if it could perhaps tied me over until I could afford the jump to level 3/4 separates.

Your comment about better gear over wires makes sense. I'm looking at some used Isis cables now, which if they work out I will buy. Otherwise, I'll probably just order some Lexus and call it a day. Then starting looking more seriously at amps. Hopefully to a comparison at Sound Hounds.

I also used to enjoy reading UHF back in the day. They sort of dropped off the map.

Thanks again.

 

Well Audio Note seems to be a separates company that makes Integrateds by putting separates in one case and share a power supply.

The OTO PHONO SE is an M1 Phono SE preamp combined with a P1SE power supply. Same thing but in one box. Because Audio Note doesn't have prein or preout I prefer going the separates route to make upgrading easier.

In fact with the power amps you can use them as a pseudo integrated - I guess like a passive preamp so you can begin with a P1SE power amp and still connect 1 source to it via the inputs until you can save for an M1 preamp. Then the preamp output would go to the inputs on the P1SE







Here is the M1 beside the P1 - A pulled apart OTO.

 

Of course separates give you more flexibility, but AN makes some very nice integrateds, too. The Meishu Tonmeister, in particular, is a wonderful sounding integrated amp.

 

Thanks Richard. I didn't really consider the M2 pre and a stereo power amp. That could work, as it gives an upgrade path. I've thought about the Vindicator or Paladin. Although I would be ordering blind (or should I say deaf?) without hearing them first. I don't find much online about these models. I'm also not sure how much resale value they will hold when I upgrade. Part of the reason I was leaning towards the Oto was it's strong resale value.

Btw: that last img didn't load. Looks like it's link to your google account and it throws a 403 error.


Napabob: I haven't hear the Meishu Tonemaster, but I read good things about it. Although, price wise it's starting to get up there. My thought now was to keep costs down while I save. Which is why I was thinking an lv2 integrated to start.

I would also considering something used/demo as a stepping stone. As to hopefully roughly break even when flip it later, for what I really want.

 

Trying a different photo.

Yes resale value could be trickier on 2-4 watt amps. In retrospect I should have considered this myself if down the line I plan on the Neiro 2a3 amps which is level four or if by some miracle I can get a deal on the Kageki. Both of which would then likely necessitate a move from the M3 to the M6.

But these are want things not need things - I am quite happy buying vinyl. the TT3 has led to me buying close to $1,000US in vinyl over the last 3 weeks. I can't wait to get back to Canada because we have a few big second hand shops and I can fill a suitcase to bring back to Hong Kong.

I too look at the used market and my dealer is pretty good about telling me if other customers are upgrading and want to sell something. If I had the money - I would have pounced on the M3 Silver Signature power amp (can be used as 1 source integrated like the P1 and P2). The price the customer was asking was terrific but it's just a bit uncomfortable for me right now especially since it would not be going to primary system. Still my second system only has one source so it would make fgor a big upgrade over my Kingko 101 which I could use as a dedicated headphone amp at work.

 

That's my concern with the small stereo amps, I could see them dropping in value more than an Oto. If I buy things to experiment in my home system, I would like to be able flip them for about what I paid. I would be tempted to try something like that P3 SS if it comes along for the right price.

If you decide to upgrade the M3/Empress, I may be interested based on the timing. Sounds like we both have a similar idea for a destination.

I would like to hear a 211 at some point, but that may be a bad idea....

 

indeed!

 

Sorry, I missed responding to a few messages here.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep this in mind.

Thats good to know with Peter's suggestion of the M2B+P3T. Richard (above) has also also echoed the separates idea.

The more I think about it, the more I think they're right. As I lean towards separates, for my end game. It makes the upgrade path easier while on the journey.

 

I prefer the sound of the M3 Phono/Empress Silver to the Jinro and it costs less and you get a phono stage

This will probably be a strange comment but I find the 2a3 Empress Silver a more linear and a better "rocker" amplifier - the Jinro for me is denser and seems to capture more hall - but sounds a little slower and fatter in the midrange. The argument would be that the Jinro has more valve elegance and so the folks who prefer that sound may find the M3/Empress Silver combo leaner and thinner sounding.

But for me - at this point I am a 2a3/45 guy. I suspect the Tomei might give me what I like about the Jinro and add some of what I want in the 2a3. But then it gets really pricey.

The great thing about the 2a3 or 45 is that Audio Note doesn't have to get those massive power supplies - so you can buy a level 4/5 2a3 amp from them for the price of a level three 211. The bigger power means they have to spend a lot more on the transformers.

I was initially trying to save for a Neiro. I would really like to do an A/B comparison one day. But the Empress and Vidicator are priced quite reasonably comparatively.

I think the resale will be pretty good but anytime it's a niche market - it can take more time to get the buyers.

One thing with Covid 19 is that 4 of my trips have had to be cancelled. I got my money back from Air Canada for my yearly trip back home - also got reimbursed for my annual trip to Las Vegas - plus all the money I lose at the poker tables (lol) and my trips to New Zealand and Manila were cancelled. Probably won't go anywhere at Christmas - so that all paid for my TT3 and some.

As for selling - unfortunately I live in HK - I see you are in Canada - try the guys at Soundhounds. When Terry ran things he managed to get deals from audio Manufacturers so he had better prices than other dealers in North America. He bought in bulk sometimes or bought refurbished units. So he was selling some Rotel separates for less than half the price of any other dealer in North America - full warranty etc so why not. So that's how I got the AN K and AN J back then as a University student. The AN J/SPe was cheaper because I only had the choice of black and it had a bit of scuffing on the back of the cabinet and a little glue around the driver showing. But umm half the price is half the price.

So if Audio Note drops one of those Neiro amps - I am happy to take a dented one. I'll take a hot pink set if someone ordered it and changed their mind. Doesn't bother me. I'll take a Hello Kitty version.

 

Richard,

I posed a question to PQ with respect to the M2 versus the M3 combined with the Conqueror. His response was to consider the M2 Balanced over the M3; however, PQ offered a amplifier solution that does not exit.

That being a P3 Balanced Tonmeister. The rationale being that the M2 Balanced would pair nicely with other balanced circuitry components, e.g. Dac 3.1x Balanced. I have read reviews of the M2 Balanced performing on par with the M3.

I also spoke with Martin Grennall with regard to the P3 Balanaced Tonmeister. Apparently, the P3 Balanced Tonmeister is somewhere between a R&D conceptual design and a prototype.

I have been pondering a 2A3 amp vs 300B. I like the sound of AN 300B amps but as you know, good 300B tubes especially, the new AN 4300 E's can get quite expensive.

My listening centers around mostly blues, jazz instrumental, jazz vocalist, some baroque, classical period, romantic period and 20th century composers. No hard rock or heavy metal.

Do you think a M6 would be a good match with the Empress or Kageki, or would the M6 have too much gain? Which brings us back to M3 vs M2 balanced.

 

I hadn't thought about considering balanced - My M3 is the M3 Phono Balanced so it it makes sense to get an M2 Balanced over the M3 non balanced I suppose. The Neiro comes in a balanced version. I have not heard an AN Balanced set-up versus the non balanced so I can't say what the gain would be.