Help with SOTA Sapphire

You didn't read far enough.

 

This is what I posted 'He just jumped all over me on SH. Like I care.' Is that so bad ?

 

The thing about that loooooong thread at AK, it's that long because I was there to help people. Looking now there is a bunch of questions being posted and no one there to help anymore really. Many of the members posting there, that now have these tables looked to me for advice prior, and I was there to help them. They are now helping others the best they can, but are in many ways limited of the evolution of SOTA tables.

For the longest time there wasn't very many people who posted online about these tables who owned them. It was a different demographic and social-economic class, who didn't go to sites like these. Now that some of the used tables started to be in the reach of more people I started to see more people sending me private messages asking for help. I decided to start that thread so everyone can learn and join in together. Now there are many that I helped even surpass me and buying the latest and greatest TOTL decks from SOTA. That takes a commitment to dive that deep into these tables as they are not cheap. So all and all I'm glad I was able to help grow a SOTA fan bace to love these tables. Like yourself, I know many who got this table new or old will say it's the last one I need, I can die with it and it will last till my last days....

 

What happened to your thread on AK ? I imagine it would be upsetting to put all of that work into it and then have something happen. I had one thread that I put a lot of time and effort into. Two guys could not stop arguing. I warned them to stop it or I would delete the thread. It ended up getting locked while I was unconcious from a prescription drug reaction. Everyone was trying to blame the other guy. I got so disgusted that I asked a moderator to open it long enough for me to delete it. I deleted it.

 

Perhaps this is worth considering. SOTA has been around a long time, and their product line up has spanned different contributors to the designs of various tables, different manufacturing facilities, different levels of technology available to build tables, in some cases different supplies for raw materials and sub components, and different time periods of this hobby with different expectations, distribution networks, and expectations of hobbyists. In short SOTA as a company has changed over the years, and the world itself has changed along with them.

The current designer is Christan Griego, and as a high end instrument manufacturer he brings a different set of skills and expectations to the company that previous contributors did not have. The new magnetic bearing is an example of new path thinking at the company. So it the platter material composition, which reduces weight but is reported to be more balanced tonally. The facility now has CNC capability, whereas the old tables were built on a table saw and planar. The adaption of motor controls designed by Phoenix Technology is another refinement found in the current generation tables.

Yet as things change, the classic cues that are time tested are still utilized. The hung suspension, the classic rounded corners with dovetail joints, the Reflex clamp, the composite arm boards, a vacuum platter system, and the lead ballast pockets to make leveling the sub-chassis a painless task. These are time tested and successful design components.


About this tone arm mounting, I got no idea where some of these ideas come from. It is pretty simple, an arm has Effective length of the arm, which is essentially its total length. The spindle to pivot measurement determines how far the vertical bearing center is located from the spindle, and is used to know where to drill the hole for the tone arm. The overhang length is how far the stylus tip is supposed to extend past the spindle. If you add spindle to pivot and overhang it ends up equaling effective length. These are all published specs from the tone arm manufacturer and are designed to use one of the accepted alignment profiles.

Now there are many alignment profiles out there, and since tone arm head shells have slots, its feasible a cartridge can be set up to an alternate alignment profile, and not have the spindle to pivot length change. While its true some arms do not have the ability to change cartridge angle like a SME, they do have a sled they slide in to change the tone arm to spindle length in order to adjust for the differences in cartridge length, which affect alignment.

This idea that SOTA creates some kind of secret alignment is one of the craziest things I have heard. Have never seen any evidence of that. Now some Japanese tone arm manufacturers did have some unusual alignment geometries, one example is SAEC, and those arms have many folks who view them with suspicions since they have difficulty hitting the accepted alignment profiles currently used.

Tines change. Turntable designs change. SOTA has changed into SOTA INNOVATIONS. The world moves on.

 

Sota was also pretty much internet / forum hostile back in the day too.
They were actively unsupportive of (threatening toward ) sites like vinylengine and proliferating anything about their tables, mentioning their name, and certainly no sharing of manuals to members, etc. That tempered over time.

I love my Sapphire, and I get along well with Donna, but there are quirks about the whole Sota 'thing' that kind of drive me nuts and make me reticent to recommend them to just anyone.

I bitch about stuff now and then, but I keep the table, with the ET/2 on it, it still sounds great to me most of the time.

 

Nothing the SOTA thread your participating in is mine and it's active, but I'm not there to help answer questions people are leaving.

 

I found this after just a quick search:

'They do not use Rega distances so you can not replace with a real 202 or 303 without modification. I was lied to on several occasions. I will no longer be purchasing anything from them. Hope this helps.'

and

'They do, indeed, use the distance that Baerwald used in his writings rather than the traditional Rega pivot to spindle distance, which many people consider a plus and a lower distortion design. You can use any other Rega arm on their tables. The arms they use are no different, they just require a non-Rega alignment geometry.'

It's in this thread:
sota moonbeam iii turntable thoughts?

I knew that I had seen it somewhere years ago.

 

Actually this was just with Vinylengine, and really that site has issues anyway.
But as John just stated above you and I have had many of their tables here that I owned and or serviced. They are all pretty much custom made, I have only seen two that where alike. Knowing that this is the case, there is no schematics and build sheets to share, if they printed one, it would not be right for another table.

Also, SOTA provides a service, they always have to help their customers and that is company income. Why would one want to let every tom dick and harry work on their tables? For one thing as being a buyer of used tables, I'm glad tom didn't get his hands into any of mine. I'v seen some spastic cases others have worked on, it's a good thing it's not that many. It's the SOTA built table that is a brand people want, not some hack together mess that no longer is a SOTA built table.

Vinylengine is the one with a hard on over SOTA

 

That's it in a nut shell John, I hope the owner of this thread can get their table speed right. Pretty sure it's the belt.

 

I can assure you they mounted my Rega arm at 219.5 mm from the center of the spindle. If some can’t comprehend this, well, they can make an appointment to pop over and measure for themselves. Also, I didn’t find that info on the net until after I had measured and made a few protractors. The fact that my measurement was confirmed to the .5 mm had some resonance with me.

Thing is, SOTA could have changed this policy at any time and know from their records which tables are set up to which geometries. We don’t really know, which is why I always discuss in terms of my table. I don’t think my socio-economic class or the distribution of sales over Sotas full line has any bearing on this fact. Characterizing it as a “secret alignment” is also kinda hyperbolic and weak. They won’t give out this info, though, so why not mention to people that they may want to measure rather than assume? I’d call it proprietary and leave it at that.

My bottom line is that I can’t package up my table and send it in for a new cart three times a year. I would need a second table so I would have one to spin records. I respect their policy. Fine, but I am going to align my own carts and do basic maintenance.

 

A deck is not set to a specific geometry. That can be changed by the owner. Sota drills the armboard according to the manufactures p-s measurement. The owner then pick a geometry he likes. My preference is Lofgren B on the Cosmos. Less distortion in the beginning of an LP. Thanks Bill

 

A plinth without an armboard that has a hole drilled in it to accommodate a Rega arm has its p to s distance permanently set. ON SOME TABLES SOTA DOES NOT FOLLOW THE ARM MANUFACTURERS SUGGESTED PIVOT TO SPINDLE!

This is a FACT. It does not matter if the table is one of the least expensive. They do not use Rega's specification when they set them up, or have in the past, or selectively do on some tables, or used to and now decided it was not a good idea. Whatever.

 

Makes no sense to me at all.

 

Imagine how surprised and pissed I was when I finally measured and realized I had actually used an arc protractor designed for a standard Rega mounting? If you read through the thread, and follow some links, you will see that some people have worked with the math from the original Braewald papers and come to the conclusion that 219.5 mm is a better choice. I am not making the point that this is correct, but this is exactly what SoTA has chosen to do on my particular table, and I can't change that with a new arm board. I can use a two point protractor, or I can send the deck back to SoTA, or I can make my own custom arc protractor.

Now as I've considered upgrading this turntable for the last decade, I still have a few questions:

1.) Is a suspended table a good choice in an old house that shifts around with every storm. I have to re-level my Comet pretty often, and I don't need to add a more complicated process in this regard.

2.) Can I trust them to install a tonearm and drill an arm board? If they do, they maybe won't tell me if it is to the manufacturers spec. or if they've reconsidered the arm-makers specs and tried to improve on them. I've asked, but to this date I don't have an answer.

And while I'm on my soap box, what really bothers me is the near total disregard that is shown for people's record collections. They know that people with Rega arms are going to download protractors and get poor alignment. They have to know that this leads to the terrible sort of record wear that anyone who buys used records knows about all too well. In the end, it's about the records. The players and cart are a means to an end. When a company shows more concern for keeping control and profit related to a basic service like installing a cart, and less about the preservation of the actual media, IMO, they are on the wrong side of the position.

 

What is the P_S spec on your Rega tonearm? if it's a mm or 2 could you drill the mounting hole oversize to get to Rega specs?

Sota drilled my arm board spot on @ 233.5mm

 

That’s comforting. 222 is what Rega recommends. People have looked at the length of the arm and decided that 219.5 results in lower distortion AND will allow for a Braewald alignment or a modified Braewald. I can get good results with the table as it is set up, but I had to take some pains to get there.

 

I still have the ad from over 20 years ago from SOTA. It was touted at a "table for life".
Correct. I do not like it. but I LOVE my 43 year old Sony ps-x50 and my 48 year old SL-1200!

 

Oh! And I also love my 20 year old Music Hall MMF 5.

 

I love my 56 year old Garrard Lab 80.
I love my 43 year old AR 77-XB.
I love my 8 year old Rega. Oops....that does not qualify !!

 

I like every table I own. That’s why I bought it. Love? Probably not.

 

#Me too, Mike
Seems our friend likes crapping all over the internet, doing a lot of talking and knowing very little.

 

After communicationg with Donna and Cristan, I visited a Phoenix stereo dealer.
Unfortunately, the stereo dealership that I had in mind to sell the SOTA line is 'Not Interested'. I will not name the dealership. But my meeting with them was rather unpleasant. One comment that the owner made was that not one American turntable brand was suitable. If I had an audio store, I would have all 4 American turntable manufacturers represented. I can only think of MoFi, SOTA, U-Turn, and VPI. I may be wrong but I think McIntosh only has one model with no real options ? I don't even know where it is made. It looks funky to me anyway. LOL. Did I miss any ? Oh well, it is the dealer's loss. People would have come from all over Phoenix Metro. They would have been the only SOTA dealer in the state of AZ. And with a population of over 4 million.

 

I think it would depend on how far up the model line I go. A Moonbeam would not be a upgrade. A Cosmos definitely would be.

 

Ive been going through the thread...interesting read...quite a drift from where it began...Im a big SOTA Sapphire fan, love mine, Ive had it for over 12 years. I like Sota tables because they are upgradable, sound and look great. The support is hit and miss. I too get along with Donna, and she's helped me out in the past. At times I feel they are stalling and not giving me info that I'd need to help me do a better job looking after my table without having to ship it to them. They also have that past reputation of not allowing free sharing of info on forums like vinylengine/AK.
I have taken mine apart and put it back together again.
I can do springs, sort out subchassis suspension issues.
Make my own armboard, instal arms.
Sota table's weakest aspect was it's motor regulation/speed stability - Ive just upgraded to the eclipse system - got the kit, did it at home - its rock stable 33.333 now.
For sapphire owners out there - Id be happy to help