You could say any of those numbers and without a reference picture in front of me I'd say "maybe". I'm still not organized enough to give visual backing to my claim. Frank was quite clear that he recorded Alice's Restaurant in 30th St. That is my only source. Even though nobody has said they want to see the pics of the Control Man's Lounge (my name), showing it will tie into a find in the Plaut Collection at Yale. Here are a couple of pictures from LIFE magazine in 1956 (don't have the issue date at hand) of Glenn Gould having a snack with Fred Plaut: That's Howard Scott on the left I think the second one is an outtake and wasn't in LIFE. I love all the girlie pics on the wall, and wonder if any of them were taken by Fred? There are some redundancies and variations by a single model. I know what I want to believe. It's obviously a hangout, although Frank disavowed any knowledge of it. IIRC Glenn is having milk and graham crackers. Here's the one of him soaking his hands in hot hot hot water before playing. Don't know if that's a bathroom, but there are more girlie pics behind him FWIW. I guess the toaster would argue against it being a bathroom. (I would like to see what the bathrooms for 300 people were like, though...) Here's another from that LIFE issue, showing him on a stool from a very low angle and with high ceiling in background: Glenn Gould March 1956 30th st I think I added that caption, and it would fit into the timeline about removing the acoustical treatment. But that's not why I'm posting these pictures. The LIFE spread was photographed by Gordon Parks, who was later known as a movie director but who, unknown to me until recently, was a very famous fashion and art photographer at the time. He had a credit in the original magazine issue, and apparently did periodic work for LIFE. This is even more notable because he was a black man from humble beginnings. His Wikipedia entry is worth a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Parks Fred Plaut, being a photographer of note himself, was clearly aware when other photographers came into the studio, and I think it fair to say that almost every photographer of note in that time period was in there at one time or another. Looking over the Masterworks collection made me aware that although Don Hunstein took innumerable extraordinary pictures there, he wasn't the only one and many other photographers' work is showcased in that collection. Anyway, here's a shot that Fred took at the same time that Gordon was taking that last shot of Glenn, but from up in the booth: Again, this is a closeup of a very small, low-quality picture from a contact sheet, and is from MSS 52, The Frederick and Rose Plaut Papers in the Irving S. Gilmore Music Library of Yale University. And that's the picture limit for today.
Neumann U47: http://www.coutant.org/u47/ Neumann M49: http://www.coutant.org/m50/index.html Neumann U67: http://www.coutant.org/u67/index.html
I have a list done of Columbia cast albums, recording dates, and show opening dates. Does anyone have a clue as to how I might post it here as a table rather than a jumble of misaligned numbers and dates?? I have it in excel, html table code, and even bb edit table code, but none of these seem to post as anything but jumble. --John
Hadn't known that before. Listening again, it sounds like there was a bit of post-production. There's a bit of mono audience reaction (including the singing along near the end of the song) that sounds like it was likely live, while there's a lot more that sounds very "nice" and is stereo, which sounds like it was dubbed in later. In fact, I'd bet on it.
Another Columbia staff photographer at the time was Henry Parker, wonder if he lensed any pics at 30th Street?
Lots of drywall patching and painting going on in many of the pics. I guess to remodel and renovate, the contractors had to work "off hours" so the studio could still keep the $$ flowing
I know CBS had wonderful gear.. however, I must say the room was probably the biggest non talent factor in the great sound. Brubeck's Time Out is one of the best sounding records period. Of course the number one factor is the talent performing the music. However, you can't tell me if it was recorded today, it would sound better.
Hi John, The list of shows and dates that I posted was a screen shot uploaded to Flickr just like a picture. If you can't do that PM me and you can send it to me as some kind of file (I'm on a Mac with simple software, so nothing too exotic) and if I can open it I'll post it and credit you. Thanks! Dan
Don't forget that they weren't on headphones but were listening to each other and interacting with each other, plus the style of music that we are talking about (best example may be Time Out, but lots of the other jazz and classical records are right in there, too) is acoustic-based and therefore perfect for that space and the kind of bleed that is inherently there. Frank always made those points when talking about the sound of the space; I think he might have said it in the half of the meeting in the video in the OP, although it might have been in the second half that I haven't yet finished editing and maybe never will. When I asked about his mic'ing technique he didn't really do anything different than what I'd do for a PA gig, other than not having a bunch of speakers in the same space blasting out interfering crap. And at that point, the quality of their signal chain from start to finish and its clarity and electrical silence can't be overlooked. So while I agree that the room was a magical factor, there were a lot of magical factors that came together to create extraordinary results that we still enjoy today and hopefully for many more years and centuries. I don't think a rock band era in that space would create the same fond memories, not that there is anything inherently wrong with rock bands. They're just not right for that space or a similar one, although they can be made to work together with care.
Very good points. Since the musicians were listening to themselves without phones, the balance was probably more lifelike. Just put up the mics in the right spots, check levels and record. Of course I'm no engineer, however, I get the feeling rock records are recorded extremely loud. Then compress the heck out of the recording and you get a loud mess.
I wondered about that! How does this not violate the "rule" that all sessions had to be completed in one 24 hour period or EVERYONE got paid for a whole new session? (as stated by Frank in the video.) Regardless, here is a picture from one of those days Jo Sullivan's Shoes, from the Masterworks site showing how the Voice of the Theater studio monitors are actually multi-purpose devices: shoe stand, drink table, listening device. It's also a cool picture because it shows how the front baffle is nothing special: 3/4" or 1" plywood face, with 2"x2" frame in back. Thanks for that info on the session dates, I've incorporated it into my listings. I'm looking forward to seeing what else you have. Thanks!
Not sure what he would be speaking of. That obviously wasn't the case with Company, where Elaine Stritch came back after the fact to record her vocal.
But that was why they were trying so desparately to get it done the first night, and only reluctantly gave up and came back again, according to my recollection of watching the video with Frank. It was unusual rather than SOP as I understood it. Edit: and a magnitude more costly. (If "magnitude" means "double".)
I interpreted that as more wanting to recording the vocal live with the orchestra than anything else. If "paying everybody" was the concern, then it wouldn't have mattered if the whole orchestra was brought back in for another session. But it's clear they didn't want to do that, hence laying down the backing first so Stritch - and only Stritch - had to come back later.
He did. Here are the photographers on the Masterworks site who photographed sessions that were at 30th St, with one exception: Eileen Darby/Graphic House, Talbot, Don Hunstein, Guy Gillette, Fred Plaut, Howard Zieff, Mike Ehrenberg, Dan Weiner, Bob Henriques, Russell, Vernon Smith, Hank Parker (Thurber Carnival, King and I), Larry Winograd, Friedman-Abeles (actual theater shots only), Fred Lombardi, Sandy Speiser, Lester Glassner. Those are in chronological order as they appear, but repetitions not noted. I put the two shows that Hank Parker has credits on the Masterworks site if you want to look at his work. The vast majority of pictures at 30th St were taken by Don Hunstein, maybe as much as everyone else put together. His book (linked in the OP) really has some sweet images, much better than on the Internet. There are also pictures of Henri Cartier-Bresson at the studio that Fred Plaut took, but I don't know what session or sessions he was at.
Don't you mean "would have mattered"? If the orchestra is brought back or kept into the next day, they are paid double in total. Presumably they weren't paid for the track that was used the next day or whenever. Do we know that was the next day? I assumed that they gave her some rest rather than immediately making her hit the mark the next day, but I don't know. A standard session was 3 hours IIRC, and they'd record 4 songs in that time IIRC. Don't know about these all day things, but certainly everyone was paid more for all day than for 3 hours, presumably with extra pay after a certain number of hours and again after a certain hour like midnight. Union rules, at least nowadays, don't limit a worker's overall hours in a day but make sure that as time milestones pass by, the pay rate increases sequentially then drastically. A day can last for days chronologically, with the last hours being worth some multiple of the first. I don't know rates or increments back then, except that in Ashley Kahn's wonderful book about Kind of Blue he shows accounting records that state sideman's wages for B. Evans, W. Kelly, J. Adderly and J. Coltrane were $64.67 each for 3.5 hours of music in a 3 hour session, with bass player P. Chambers and drummer J. Cobb getting $2 more for cartage.
No, I mean wouldn't have mattered. If EVERYBODY got paid if there was an additional session, then it wouldn't matter if that additional session was a whole orchestra or just Stritch, no? Thus there would have been no financial gain to just bringing back Stritch later. But there *was* a concern with bringing back the orchestra later, which would seem to indicate "everybody got paid regardless" wasn't true. I don't recall if Stritch came back on Monday or Tuesday. I believe I've seen "the next day" indicated, but I've also seen mention of Monday or Tuesday. It would appear the recording date is just listed as May 3, 1970 at 30th Street, with no mention of the overdub session later at Studio E.
Well then I think it's pretty straightforward: presumably they usually *wanted* to complete the sessions all in one day, but sometimes that just wasn't possible, for one reason or another. Certainly the musicians would get paid for additional sessions. Kind of like the "Sunday rule". Perhaps sessions were *usually* the first Sunday after (?) the show opened, but there were exceptions. Maybe Frank's statements of "always" were hyperbole, or he simply didn't recall the exceptions.
I have no interest in the actual music you all are talking about here but I've much enjoyed spending the last two hours reading this thread. Great use of the internet.
