I don’t know much about Klipschorns. Always wanted to hear a pair. Is feeding them that much power a common thing
I have stacks of A/AB Amps, tube and Solid state and my Nova500 kicked them all to the side. I doubt I will ever go back to a whole rack of boxes to do what the right small box can do. This is a hobby about what makes you happy and and for many that is sticking to their old school guns. So many opinions based on outdated experiences. My first Class D amps exhibited most if not all of the negatives expressed. My current ones (Nova 500, Nova150, NAD D3020) Exhibit none of them, at least to me. Add the Balanced preamp section and the fully differential 9028Pro DAC and it is by far the my favorite integrated I have owned up until now (if I avoid the nostalgia of my 1980 A-X9). Add the little nugget of it sitting enclosed in my cabinet powered up and ready to go. So happy to no longer have to power of the tube gear and wait.
Not in my experience at all. I don’t think I’ve ever met someone or heard their Klipschorn setup that wasn’t full tubes in both the pre and power stages. There are high wattage tube amps, but all the stellar results I’ve experienced ranged from 300B low watt amps to EL34 or KT88 amps.
I tend to play with class D and tube buffers. They are inexpensive (unless you go for more serious stuff), stuff like FX Audio, SMSL have gear that sounds good to great, yet is relatively very inexpensive. I don't think I'd want my be all end all main setup to be anything like this, but I have a fun little setup, using the SMSL 98E and FX Audio Tube 01 into(right now) some Elac B6 (1st gen). This small, inexpensive setup sounds very good. I'd wager it sounds better than many would believe without hearing it. This to me is where class D is great, fun, good sounding gear that most can afford to mess with. High end class D, that I know nothing about.
I’m not sure what you mean by “there” yet? I guess the question is what do you think you are missing from your current application and what would you hope to improve or change? My first thought when I read your post would be to try a bi-amped or tri-amped configuration with modern DSP / crossover. My experience from using horn- loaded speakers is that they can greatly benefit from driver time alignment - but you can only get there by bi-amping as a minimum and preferably tri-amp. This brought to mind a LONG running thread on the Klipsch community forum that deals with tri-amping Klipschorn and using some fairly normal Crown DC75 amps in conjunction with modern (circa 2011) DSP and Crossovers. It is a very interesting read so please follow the link. I know the main protagonist in the thread, Greg Oshiro, IRL. He is a stellar sound engineer and loudspeaker designer. The dude knows whereof he speaks! There is also a link from that thread to pretty detailed run down of the measurements of the Klipschorn. Also a good read of you like that kind of stuff. So, if they were my speakers, I’d probably be interested in trying out a Tri-amplified system using some fairly common commercial amps with built-in DSP and using the filter, crossover, and time alignment settings from the thread above as a starting point. Probably (due to current affiliations) I would start with something like a pair of Powersoft Mezzo 2 CH and 4 CH (602A for the LF and 604A for Mid-Hi). I don’t have a built-in prejudice to commercial being inferior to audiophile....commercial amps end up in a lot of very high-end home and studio systems. You can upscale or downscale - but the design idea would be the same. I *think* the real trick is going to be in time alignment and applying some modern DSP filters. If cost was no object I would just buy a pair of Macintosh MC901....I love the idea of the hybrid use of Class D for LFE and Tubes for Mid-Hi. I heard this amp at ISE earlier this year and it was impressive. (My last trip before being quarantined...) I don’t want to get too far off topic here but it seems that consumer or audiophile class D amps do not leverage the full capabilities or versatility available in Class D Topology. They design for a fixed design criteria that they hope will work with a range of loud speakers - some better / some worse. Modern Class D amps used in commercial or live performance applications are often highly configurable and can be customized for just about any loudspeaker configuration. In fact, many amplifier companies work closely with speaker manufacturers to provide presets designed to optimize the performance of their systems. This includes output current limiting / voltage limiting, DSP / Crossovers, filters, multi band compression, power factor correction and scaling - even managing for differences in input voltage, etc. They can also often easily drive LoZ loads down to 2 ohm. Too much to list here. This also helps to eliminate a lot of “trial and error”. Production companies can invest in an amplifier package that they know can be configured and optimized for their whole inventory of speakers - now or future.
You hit the nail on the head with "So many opinions based on outdated experiences". I am truly flawed by my Ruby amp!
I’ve had many system configurations over the years but at this point I just want to squeeze a bit more from the Klipschorns. I’m extremely satisfied with the present sound and just want to bring out its full natural capabilities.
I have not had great experiences in the past with Class D amplification but to be fair I have never tried the newest, high-end Class D. I do recall listening to MG Audio Design Class D prototype monoblocks at last year's AXPONA and recalled a wow factor in how clean the sound was but after a few minutes it began bordering on hifi-ish. I wonder if Class D can provide the romantic liquidity that I love about Class A.
I changed amps a couple of years ago from a Music Reference RM-9 to a pair of PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblocks and I’ve been really happy with them. I can (and do) listen for hours without any musical fatigue setting in.
I think that to properly decide on modern Class D (or any amp really) you need to be able to demo it for a long session (several hours continuously). My first Peachtree Nova 65 several years ago sounded really good in a short session, but after a couple hours it really started to wear on me. I think this is the characteristic that many found unappealing in the designs until pretty recently. I was a bit reluctant when I took the Nova150 home for a demo three plus years ago and found it to have none of that. It lives in my office and plays sometimes for 15-16 hours and never becomes fatiguing. I have swapped in other gear like my Rogue RP5 and an ARC SS power amp (D240MkII) as well as my Yamaha CA2010, Cayin A-50T, and my LS50W's. That's a pretty wide cross section, but I always went back to the Peachtree and my System Audio Aura10 bookshelves with the REL T3 Sub. This made it easy to order the 500 sight unseen. I actually got an RMA to return it as I was not very happy with it at first, then after a bout two weeks it opened up and I have no desire to part with it. My beloved Nova 150 had the headphone amp fail and I had to send it back to Peachtree. I figured that with everything going on they would not be quick to respond to an out of warranty repair, so I set it on the shelf for a few weeks hoping things would return to normal. Doing this time I moved the 500 back to my office and reinstalled all the big hardware to the den. Then once I sent it in they repaired it next day and quickly returned it. It immediately returned to it's place and all is right with the world. It's also funny to me that the characteristics that many associate with Class D (Bright/Tiresome, Glareish, heavy handed bottom) had nothing to do with my dislike of Rogue's implementation using the Hypex modules. I found the Pharaoh and Sphinx to be somewhat dull, dark and lifeless, though their owners would debate this. I should say that by coincidence the day I brought each of them home, I had a parent suddenly go into the hospital and neither got a really good audition.
Then I think bi-amping or Tri-amping with some DSP and time alignment would be the next thing to try - according to the comments in that thread I listed. I have never used the MiniDSP products but their 4x10HD looks pretty interesting and would give you enough I/O to try just about any configuration. You could use your current Nirvana A-60 for the HF or Mid-HF and grab a low wattage class D for the LF or a decent 4 channel for the LF and MF. Once you’ve got the driver compensation and time alignment dialed in then upgrading amps would probably only give marginal improvements. I’d be more inclined to try room correction after that.
I was told that my amp would need 500 hours before it would sound it's best, and that has turned out to be the case, the sound stage just got bigger and bigger!
Sure, the THX AAA tech like Benchmark amp is great. I fail to see what's the difference whether it's "in spite of being class D" or not. We can say this for all kinds of technology we might look down on for whatever reason. That Porsche is great in spite of it being just an internal combustion engine might make sense for some Tesla Ludicrous Mode fans... So long as the performance achieves good fidelity, I'm not sure as a consumer one necessarily cares how the engineer implemented the technology. Good Class D can be inexpensive, small, light, highly efficient, and can cater to all kinds of needs from more "relaxed" inexpensive designs that power subs to very high quality full-range designs like nCore or PuriFi among others. To get this level of performance with less energy wastage and at a price level that the masses can enjoy is a sign of technological advancement. IMO, this should be supported and hope audiophiles don't hold some kind of negative bias due to older products they've experienced or the fact that the price is lower for example (celebrate!). BTW folks, anyone know of a stereo THX AAA amplifier that provides >100Wpc into 8-ohms equivalent to something like that nCore NC252MP module for <$1000? Would love to get my hands on something like that!
@Khorn Checkout the Benchmark AHB2 review at ASR. It tested extremely well. Review and Measurements of Benchmark AHB2 Amp
Having been in the industry for many decades sometimes a manufacture or importer will send me equipment to evaluate for a period of time before bringing to market. I have heard many class D amps from the most expensive to fairly inexpensive and for "ME" what is lacking in class D is proper tone i do not care about measurements or white papers as these are "tone deaf" class D to "ME" is like an instrument that is out of tune and the sound is very HiFi-ish and reminds me of 70`s SS, Phase Linear 400 or 700b comes to mind. I have yet to hear what great class A or SET amps can do in class D.
i agree but system synergy is critical. i heard the paraasound hint and a21 with several speakers. they sounded colder than class D with KEF speakers (even Blades) but warm and smooth with Harbeths and GE Tritons. Agreed about tubes on the inlet stage, this is what Ask Paul recommends and he explained why quite well on a video. Why I like the sound of the Rogue Audio mythology series (Hydra, Medusa, DragoN).
Yeah, I'm playing my Parasound through Maggies and it's lovely. Warm, rich and detailed. I have a pair of Harbeth P3ESR 40th anniversary and I might just hook them up this weekend in the living room, just to hear what they sound like with the HINT6. (They're now in my office system, as the Maggies replaced them in the living room.) But I digress. Back to class D...
I have an old QSC MX 1500a. The spec sheet says class H. Class H. Never heard of that before. Is that correct?
I've had Classes D & H experiences, but settled on Yamaha's EEEngine, which is claimed to combine aspects of Classes A, A/B & D topologies. Having 4 Polk RTiA9s in a HT configuration, I found some disappointments along the way: Pioneer SC-07, circa 2008, with 140 watt per channel ICE Class D power amplifiers. This was fine for HT use, but would give ear fatigue in longer 2-channel music sessions. I upped the ante with a QSC GX-7 pro amplifier (725 W @ 8 ohms), using the pre-outs on the SC-07 for the front 2 channels. No listening fatigue. But the fan ran constantly & even my wife objected to the noise. I sold the QSC for ~ cost on ebay; & purchased a Yamaha P7000s pro amp (700W x 2 @ 8Ω) "demo" from an authorized dealer for $599. This utilizes Yamaha's EEEngine. Although it has variable speed fans, I've never heard them come on. I've since replaced the Pioneer AVR with a Yamaha RX-A1060, again using the pre-outs to the pro amp, & the front Polks with Focal 1038be. When nothing is playing, nothing is to be heard by placing your ear in line with the top mid-woofer. The Yamaha's EEEngine topology has since been replaced with a newly-developed Class-D amplifier in the replacement PX series power amplifiers. Owners complain that the fans on the PX series are on all the time & noisy. State of the Art: Yamaha EEEngine
I'm all for advancement of technology, especially anything "green," but I've heard the best that modern class D has to offer currently and it still falls a little short. It's simply an unnecessary compromise when talking 5 digit budgets. Now if one absolutely needs a 1000WPC amp that performs like a 500WPC amp for <$1K, then it's the only viable option.
Yeah, when people can't get it to work right they DO get weary! Room correction can really smoothen the response. But like any programmed thing (GPS navigation, which I used to test drive, comes to mind), they can be caught out and fooled. Actually a giant audio company I worked for developed time-based automotive "room correction" which was usually great but sometimes would yield weird results.
I don't get that design choice. In applications like studios, the fans just shouldn't be needed. It's so odd to have them on all the time. Unless they are just on at full speed due to cheaper than variable, and the assumption is the intended use is at/near full blast constantly?
