Is Heavy Metal Rock'n'Roll?

Classic KISS were pure rock'n'roll. As long as Peter Criss was in the band. But even with Anton Fig there were tons of rock'n'roll on 1979/1980 LPs. When Eric Carr joined it was an entirely different beast.

 

Well, Metal doesn't really sound like the original versions of Rock and Roll (i.e. Chuck Berry, Elvis, etc) however I'd say it's pretty close in spirit to the forefathers of Rock & Roll - In other words, hated by critics and parents.

 

So Heavy Metal is European and not American (rock 'n' roll).

 

"Just you" said in the literal sense, I guess.

My musical background is jazz. I listen to jazz most of the time.

If you don't think Sabbath swings, I'd argue you either don't know Sabbath or don't understand jazz, I'm not sure there is a third option. "Fairies Wear Boots" has more swing in five minutes than most rock bands could must in an entire career.

But don't take my word for it, read up on what even some in the jazz community have to say about it.....

Black Sabbath has had a serious influence not only in rock music, but increasingly in jazz as well. This can be validated in free jazz circles by highly acclaimed musicians such as pianist Gust Burns and saxophonist Gregory Reynolds who enthusiastically acknowledge Sabbath's music as "real jazz."

Bill Ward: From Jazz to Black Sabbath, Part 1-2

Anyway...... Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder is more "rock 'n' roll" than Sabbath? Hope your island has a nice view.

 

yes...

 

I think of heavy metal as a subset of rock which is a subset of rock and roll. But I could be wrong.

 

I'm gonna agree to disagree. I hear a fresh take on a classic. You've got narrow definitions. That's OK.

 

"Hope your island has a nice view." I like it.

 

It's not about definitions, it's about spirit. I just don't hear rock'n'roll spirit in it and everything about their cover is anti-rock'n'roll. Highly polished, digital and mechanical. A fresh take? Maybe, but to me it sounds like robots from outer space do it.

 

Ok, RnR can't have any polish or robots. That falls under personal preference rather than an accepted universal definition. You can totally miss the spirit in this great version, but that hardly means it doesn't qualify as Rock n Roll. It's just RnR you don't like.

 

I don't know about the rest of yaz,
but this track hollers "Heaveee Metal "
to me .. !

 

I always thought this was Rock and Roll.

 

Metal and Rock'n'Roll are subsets of Rock, and Heavy Metal is a subset of Metal.

 

Definitely. It's the next evolution, as someone else said. Personally, Metallica and Megadeth are the heaviest I'll go (both seem to have one foot in thrash and one foot in traditional heavy metal; Anthrax, Slayer and others seemed to be full-on thrash).

 

Maybe we should ask Pat:

 

See what I mean?

 

Could Lemmy's comment not be seen him recognising the continuities between rock n roll and metal? As in metal originating within and being rnr, not distinct and isolated from it. I too see Motorhead as metal, which in turn is a continuation of and subset of rock and roll. Just a faster and harder version or flavour.

Tom Araya (Slayer) said in interview he heard Motorhead and thought he could take it and make it faster and heavier- thrash being a harder and faster version of metal.

 

I used to listen to a lot of heavy metal in my early-teens but reading this thread and especially listening to the Judas Priest Johnny B Goode cover made me realize I cant stand heavy metal anymore. At least 80s heavy metal, I believe from the 80s onwards heavy metal became an entirely different beast from rock n roll.

 

It’s been a few years but from what I remember he sounded rather negative towards being called metal. The impression I got was that he did not see them as metal at all.

 

I talked with my brother (born in 1970) yesterday, who's been exposed to much more of it than I, and he summed up the prob with HM quite succinctly, "No joy".

 

Well, to be fair Priest's cover of Johnny B Goode is one of their lowest points ever. A real abomination, one of THE worst covers ever. This from a band which did mighty fine covers in the 70's.

 

Not wishing to further muddy the water, surely Priest are heavy rock as opposed to metal? Doesn't seem sufficiently fast and heavy to warrant the metal genre. Having been a metaller in my teens maybe I'm just trying to distance myself from Priest whom I never liked.

 

This just may be my favorite thread since "Pictures Of Musicians With Umbrellas".

 

Depends on what heavy metal you're talking about. Not to regurgitate another thread but there's a big difference of opinion in regards to who or what qualifies as heavy metal or metal. What was called heavy metal in the 70s (Led Zep, KISS, Deep Purple) is significantly different from the thrash/speed metal of the 80s; and those 80s bands in turn led to extreme-/death-/black-metal and grindcore. To me, once you get to that type of metal, it's lost all trace of what r & r was based upon other than using the same instruments. No swing/rnr beat, atonal/dissonant chord progressions & riffs, etc. Cant' remember exactly who, but I recall some of the black metal groups being very clear they were making a European music, something removed from blues based rock (possibly Mayhem discussing why they had Conrad Schnitzler do the intro to their first lp - but don't hold me to that).
[ On a total side note, and I'm not calling anyone out or trolling, but I find it a bit humorous all the arguments for the inclusiveness that metal is r&r, when I typically read from others on this board how rap/hiphop isn't rock/rnr. To me, Run DMC seems much more rnr than Mayhem]

 

Heavy Metal ain’t rock n roll: it’s too heavy.
Progressive Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too complicated.
Punk Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too aggressive.
New Wave ain’t rock n roll: it’s too quirky.
Southern Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too rednecky.
Country Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too mellow.
Goth Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too depressing.
Garage Rock ain't rock n roll: it’s too primitive.
Math Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too precise.
Glam Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too self indulgent.
Rock En Español ain’t rock n roll: it’s to foreign.
Post Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too noisy.
Yacht Rock ain’t rock n roll: it’s too light weight.