Jimi Hendrix - The All-Encompassing Live Shows Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by EVOLVIST, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. acetboy

    acetboy Forum Resident

    Bloomington, IL
    Sorry, this post got kinda long. I composed it as a text file first, now copy and paste:

    Ok, that wasn't so bad. Here's what I've discovered by comparing the 4 cd Winterland box to
    the 'Bob Terry' tapes.

    The BT tapes have a total run time of 382 minutes. But overall they run fast.
    That might be 390 or 400 minutes if everything was speed/pitch corrected.

    The Winterland box has 260 minutes of music. Has anyone ever gotten the impression that the
    box music runs too slow? Can we assume it's all running at the correct speed/pitch? Don't laugh. lol

    So the first edited music I find is Sunshine of Your Love from the second show on the 10th.
    2:06 from the start of Sunshine there is 29.5 seconds of music edited out. 14 bars. Which seems odd
    but the resulting phrase/passage makes sense/works.

    Then in the song Killing Floor also in the second set there are 12 bars of what amounts to bass and drums
    edited out about 5:16 from the start.

    Then for the 10-11 show first set, the Bob Terry tapes are missing 3 songs. Foxy Lady, The SSB and Purple Haze.

    And in the Winterland box the 10-11 SSB and Purple Haze are both from the first set.
    There was no SSB played in the second set. Is there confusion about that? The WIKI has it wrong.
    Claiming that the SSB is from the second set and that Purple Haze is from the first.
    But in the second set the last two songs are Foxy Lady and Purple Haze. That's the way it runs on the
    Bob Terry tapes and there is no break in the continuity between the two.

    So then the AYE at the start of set one on 10-11 has the first 1:25 of solo/intro guitar work missing.
    Then about 6:55 from the start of the box track there is about 1:06 of missing flute solo with band
    accompaniment missing. Then about 9:48 from the start of the track there is another 2:26 missing. Some quiet
    jamming with bass and drums building up to louder statements with guitar and flute coming back in.
    So that opening track AYE should be about 16 minutes or so.

    Then the second set on 10-11 starts out with Tax Free. Running at the correct speed/pitch this song should
    be about 20 minutes or so.
    5:03 from the start of the track in the box there is a 10:50 segment missing. Almost eleven minutes missing.
    Must have been guitar amp trouble I suppose. That segment starts out as drum solo and then kind of moves
    into a drums/bass jam until Hendrix comes back in for the last 5 minutes of the song.

    Then in the second set of 10-11 Lover Man is missing a bit. A couple of bits.
    After the instrumental intro there are 4 bars missing before the first verse.
    Then about 2 minutes in there's 48 bars of organ solo missing. That organ solo gets rather atonal. lol

    That brings us to the last night 10-12. No edited music in the first set tunes included in the box.
    But in the second set Red House is cut a couple of times.
    For some dumb reason there's 1:20 of prime guitar solo missing about 6:05 in from the start of the track.
    Then about 7:40 from the start there's another 1:14 missing of very nice, kind of quiet guitar soloing. Why??

    Also the last part of the SSB and all of Purple Haze are missing from the Bob Terry Tapes at the end of this show.

    So I just did a quick check to see what kind of speed/pitch difference I could measure.
    I went with a 3:00 passage in Tax Free from the first night.
    The Bob Terry tape was running 1.37% faster than the same song in the box set. .24 of a semi-tone.
    If you sync up the two sources they drift apart real quick at that rate.
    I just spent several days remastering the Bob Terry tapes, wish I had paid attention to that! lol
    I'm putting all of this away now, but I might look into fixing everything speed/pitch wise in the future.
    Once again, has anyone ever thought that the speed/pitch of the Winterland box is off?

    My final thoughts on these shows. The box gives three different studio locations for mixing.
    When were these mixes created? Back in the day? At the time the box came out? A little of both?
    I'm assuming that the shows were taped on 8 tracks??? The mix on the Bob Terry tapes is basically the same
    as the mix in the box. Of course the box sounds much better, but the mix is not that different. If at all???

    If the shows were recorded on 8 tracks and those tapes exist. Why didn't they create a bit more of a wide open mix?
    It's narrow. I listened to the Bob Terry Tapes for a long time before I decided in my mind that there was anything about
    them that wasn't just mono. There pretty darn mono-ish.

    That's all I got.... Hope I didn't miss any other edited parts. It's kind of hard to follow sometimes when
    the two sources are not running at the same speed.
  2. John Harchar

    John Harchar Forum Resident

    New Jersey
    I'll have to make a quick comparison between the box and the same songs on Concerts and Ryko.

    Great work!
  3. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    EH Trouble Shooting Guide;
    A. It's all about Money-Image-Money-Image & then Money.
    marmalade166 and DTK like this.
  4. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    Yes but then he could do a co-headlining tour with Elvis!
    vinyldreams likes this.
  5. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    Also a great booklet in the RAH CD called Rare As Love!
  6. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member

    Baton Rouge, LA
    I absolutely fine with editing. The issue for me is not that they edit....it is that their edits are disasters. Poor from a technical standpoint and often unnecessary. 10/11 Are You Experienced and 10/12 Red House from Winrerland. Don't get me started..
  7. Dr. Luther's Assistant

    Dr. Luther's Assistant dancing about architecture

    San Francisco
    At the very least, document the editing in the release's literature, for chrissakes. That's all I ask, at this point. (He says, with expectations that have been beaten down to almost non-existent levels...)
    Purple Jim and DTK like this.
  8. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member

    Baton Rouge, LA
    You can't edit out the entire crescendo of a 1968 live performance of Red House. I mean, you just don't do that.
  9. Dr. Luther's Assistant

    Dr. Luther's Assistant dancing about architecture

    San Francisco
    You're absolutely correct.
    (Particularly within the context of a 4+ hour package.)
    All Down The Line likes this.
  10. Dr. Luther's Assistant

    Dr. Luther's Assistant dancing about architecture

    San Francisco
    It seems so arbitrary that it makes one wonder if we're talking about damaged tapes, or something along those lines.
    DTK likes this.

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    What show did they do that?
  12. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member

    Baton Rouge, LA
    10/12/68 Red House
    J_D__ and EVOLVIST like this.
  13. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Music Appreciator

    Eastern Iowa
    Nice to see you back.

    I’ve never picked up the Winterland box. Is it one of the same performances (Different mix) of Red House that we’re on the live at Winterland and Variations On A Theme ?
    All Down The Line likes this.
  14. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    Pound for pound how do you rate the tracks and SQ of the original Winterland CD V the box set?
  15. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    I just remembered on reading your post that many years (well before holograms existed) ago a black comedy sketch had a promotor holding a press conference stating to the incredulous throng that Elvis would tour.
    This amounted to him being strapped to a chair with a guitar amid opening fireworks before falling of said chair.
    At the end of the skit the promoter had Elvis lying on the press conference table before saying the tour would be bolstered by another act at which point Hendrix was thrown on top of him.
    Tasteless but may fit in with the Far Side.
    Anyone see this back in the day?
  16. acetboy

    acetboy Forum Resident

    Bloomington, IL
    Well, there are some differences. Just spent the last hour looking into it.
    On the original release Tax Free is edited even more than it is on the box.
    But Killing Floor is complete, no edits.

    The mix is slightly different also. I think I prefer the mix on the original.
    The guitar leans a bit more to the left channel, Jimi stood on the left side of the stage.
    The original has less compression also. Although the box certainly is not compressed way too much or anything. Just more.
    I think I like the sound of the guitar on the original more. Might just be the less compression.
    There's a bit of reverb added to the original that you can mostly really be aware of like at the end of songs or say in the song Fire with all of that start/stopping going on.
    It seems like there's less guitar amp noise on the original, it's there but maybe that compression of the box sound brings it out more.

    So what does this tell us about the mix history??? Guess the box was a new mix??? How did that Bob Terry Tapes mix come to be??? When was it done???
  17. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    I vastly prefer the Douglas era mixes with wider separation and reverb.

    EVOLVIST Kid A Thread Starter

    Fantastic job on your studies! Thank you!
  19. Experiencereunited

    Experiencereunited Forum Resident

    Monterey Madness. This thread inspired me to do a shoot out of all the releases with Monterey material on them that I own. Results (are my opionons of course) and below.

    Video Releases

    There are 4 major camera edits available on video. The Douglas Edit, A Film About Jimi Edit, the EH Edit and the camera edit in the original Monterey Movie.

    1986 Jimi Plays Monterey Douglas Edit Laserdisc Image 20146A USA

    o Both the Analog and Digital Sound on this are great. Video has now been far surpassed. My copy of this version has Laser rot as well. Don’t recommend seeking this one out.

    1992 Jimi Hendrix Live At Monterey Douglas Edit Laserdisc BMG Vidieo BVLP-59 Japan

    o Same as the 1986 except without the Laser Rot! Both Analog and Digital sound great on this release. Stunning in fact. I do recommend this release as there is something very nice about it and you can get true analog sound with this release too. However, you can now get the Douglas Edit as part of the 2017 Monterey Complete Criterion release with much better video and stellar sound as well.

    2007 Jimi Plays Monterey EH Edit DVD Geffen 02517 45517 USA

    o Sound is great and the extra camera bonus footage is awesome. The EH camera edit for the most part is cool and the bonus footage really makes this feel like a deluxe release.

    2017 Jimi Plays Monterey EH Edit Blue Ray Legacy 8985-47886-9 USA

    o Minor and I mean minor upgrade to the EH DVD visuals. Soundwise I don’t hear much if any difference from the 2007 DVD. Unlike the Woodstock Blu Ray which is a huge upgrade both in visual and audio if you already have the previous EH DVD no need to get the Blu Ray IMO.

    2017 Monterey Pop Festival Complete 2017 (Douglas Edit and Film) Criterion 1551520641 USA

    o Frigging awesome sound choices and the best visual upgrade of the Monterey film I’ve ever seen. Absolutely gorgeous. True care went into this. Also includes a fantastic outtake Disc (the same care did not not seem to go into the outtake disc as the movie proper but still good and for the first time you get Steve Miller, Grateful Dead and Moby Grape Outtakes). Lastly this release now has the Hendrix Douglas Edit in fantastic Blu Ray Sound and video too. This is essential!

    1988 Monterey Pop Festival Laserdisc Criterion CC1320L USA

    o Great sound again both the analog and Digital. The video though is far surpassed by the 2017 Monterey Complete Blu Ray. Soundwise I have to say the Blu Ray is better too. If you have to hear Monterey in analog though this is the way to go.

    2005 A Film About Jimi Hendrix DVD Warner Brothers 12569 69846 USA

    o More unique camera edits from the EH and Douglas edits. Sound however, is a disaster. It only comes in horrible echoey Dolby 5.1 That is your only choice! Fortunately I can downmix it to stereo and for some reason it sounds ok that way. I imagine if you only have a stereo setup it defaults to the downmix since there are no setting choices which is a good thing because in downmix stereo it actually sounds pretty good. Videowise the entire video suffers from being cropped and you also don’t have the option to view it uncropped like the Beta and VHS releases. Frankly I can hardly stand to watch this because of the cropping. I have heard the European DVD is not cropped or at least gives you the option to watch full screen. Don’t know for sure as I have never seen that one. Honestly unless the European DVD is better than this one I recommend watching this movie on Beta or VHS instead of DVD despite the extra interviews and unique Atlanta Stone Free that this DVD includes.

    Notable Bootleg Roomful of Mirrors

    o Contains 4 takes of Killing Floor which are single camera edits with some sections of each having an all white screen while the music continues playing

    o Contains a complete 5th take of Killing with a different camera edit than any other official release that I know of

    o Sound and video bootleg quality are less than stellar

    Audio Only

    Vinyl Releases

    1970 Historic Performances Monterey Reprise MS2029 USA (4 songs)

    a) This mix has a certain ambiance to it that I really enjoy. Of all the mixes and versions I listened to while doing this shootout I didn’t want to turn this one off. I just wanted to sit and listen. That in itself says something.

    1979 Essential Jimi Hendrix Vol 2 Reprise HS 2293 USA (1 song)

    a) Not great. I used to love this entire album side too. Boy does Wild Thing sound thin now compared to the EH versions and even compared to the 1986 Douglas version. This version of Wild Thing is pretty much atrocious. It does seem to be a different mix than all the others though just to note. Also as an FYI the BOG Machine Gun right after Wild Thing still sounds great to me just like it did when I first heard the album.

    1986 Jimi Plays Monterey Reprise W125338 USA (Complete show)

    a) I really don’t like this mix. It was so awesome when it first came out to have the whole show in great sound. However, now after listening to the EH mixes and the original mix on Historic Performances I find this the least enjoyable. The bass is almost non existent. On the plus side the drums are the punchiest on this version of all versions. So if you have a desire to hear a mix with virtually no bass and Mitch having snappier drums more up front than any other version you will enjoy this mix.

    2000 The Jimi Hendrix Experience Box Set MCA 08811 23161 USA (2 songs)

    a) Very Similar to the 2016 and that is a good thing.

    2003 Voodoo Child: The Jimi Hendrix Collection Classic Records RTH 2016 USA (Test Pressing) (1 song)

    a) Not impressed with this mix or this entire set for that matter. Maybe the regular pressing is better than the test pressing I have. I have never heard the regular pressing.

    2016 Jimi Plays Monterey Legacy 8843042031 USA (Complete Show)

    a) This is by far the best overall vinyl pressing and the one to get for the complete show. The sound is delectable IMO. It is missing some chatter and it does have another issue! There is over 1 minute of the Purple Haze solo repeated! Thanks to Fenders Fingers for pointing this out a while ago. What a mess up EH!. Such a great mix and a really nice pressing and they hit us with an amateur error.

    None the Vinyl releases have all the between song chatter Only the Legacy CD that I am aware has all the chatter.

    CD Releases

    1986 Jimi Plays Monterey Polydor 827990-2 West Germany (Complete show)

    o Pretty much the same as the vinyl version. Not impressed and I am usually a fan of the 1st issue W. German Polydor releases. It is not the CD though I believe I just don’t enjoy this mix.

    2000 Jimi Hendrix Experience Boxset MCA 088 112 317-2 USA (2 Songs)

    o Pretty much the same as the vinyl 2016 but LOOUUDDD. This release lost the loudness war.

    2004 The Jimi Hendrix Experience Monterey Legacy 8843052402 USA (Complete show)

    o The sound is really good on this and it also has all the chatter of the show. My choice for digital audio only.

    2013 The Jimi Hendrix Experience Box Set Legacy 8697628432 USA (2 Songs)

    o The extra tracks didn’t improve the loudness. The rerelease Boxset is loud too
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  20. Experiencereunited

    Experiencereunited Forum Resident


    Great research. There's even more edits on the box than I thought. Disappointing especially the continual editing out of guest musicians along with when other musicians outside of Jimi take the lead (ie the Larry Lee Tracks at Woodstock). I get it that from Douglas on everyone has wanted to highlight how great Jimi is/was and they put him way up front in the mix and sometimes to the point where the other musicians are mixed way down or completely out. Did any of Jimi's studio albums get mixed like that? I already know Jimi is great but I want to hear him in the total context of all the musicians he played with. Not have all the backdrop edited out.,,,,,,,,,
    Fox67 likes this.
  21. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    This thread tells me one thing:

    "How To F Up A Legacy And Why Ill Stick With Boots"
    showtaper likes this.
  22. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    True but any real fan can't be without the Winterland box for example; any EH live release usually means a substantial upgrade in sq to the boots.
    footlooseman and jhm like this.
  23. All Down The Line

    All Down The Line Forum Resident

    Does that extend to the 3 x 1993 studio albums for you?
  24. DTK

    DTK Forum Resident

    No I was only referring to Winterland.
  25. Wayne Hubbard

    Wayne Hubbard Forum Resident

    I haven't seen that one.

    I did see this MadTv skit about Tupac's new movie (made around a year after his death). Some might say that was too soon and there wasn't enough distance from his death to make jokes about it.

    .....they may even try to wrap me up in cellophane and try and sell me.....

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