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Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures 40th Anniversary Limited Edition

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by bettsaj, May 8, 2019.

  1. Neve 8078

    Neve 8078 Active Member

    It always seems a bit daft to me to break the AAA chain on these remasters; i know at Abbey Rd they 9/10 these days take a 96/24 pcm from the original 2-track master.
    I know they use Benchmark A to D's there, but unless you're doing a 1/2 speed master (which opens a can of worms with de-essing and A80 roll-off), and the 2-track master is in good shape, it should be relatively easy to go A80 to VMS 80 lathe... thus preserving that precious analogue chain...
    c-eling likes this.
  2. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    London, UK
    Yeah, no problem! Just play those masters over and over again for small run reissues. Made a cutting error? No worries! Just play the tape again. Machine need calibrating? Not an issue. The tech is on their way. Tape head worn out? Why, just buy some more with the next order of NAB adaptors.
  3. c-eling

    c-eling New horizons come and go...

    Neonbeam likes this.
  4. Neve 8078

    Neve 8078 Active Member

    1. bake the original
    2. slow re-spool tail out.
    3. check the a80's for head wear.
    4. calibrate in advance.
    5. check the vms 80 in advance.
    6. make a one gen removed - a80 to a80 to a brand new tape.
    7. get a good mastering tech.
    8. cut once - job done.

    you normally have one shot when going direct to vinyl, so if you've got a competent, professional crew, you can do it...

    the advantage of going to 96/24 pcm first is if you're really, really sure the original will not take the above and if you figure there's a load of clicks, pops & drop outs - which will be easier to correct in the digital domain.

    de-essing and a-80 LF roll-off shouldn't be an issue unless you're going for a 1/2 speed...
    Putrifiers II and patient_ot like this.
  5. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    London, UK
    So you want two A80s. A well paid technician with an HND Electrical and Electronic Engineering qualification. A transfer engineer. A cutting engineer. High quality tape stock.

    Sorry but it just isn't going to happen.

    The advantage of going to 24/96 is that you can make a transfer of the master (or whatever constitutes the master nowadays) and use it over and over again without degradation. What you're proposing is incredibly risky, expensive, and will result in the finished product being even further removed from the original.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019
    c-eling and mr.datsun like this.
  6. Neve 8078

    Neve 8078 Active Member

    @Robert C "The Beatles in Mono"
  7. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    London, UK
    You're comparing the popularity and potential sales return (not to mention the archival health) of The Beatles to Joy Division?
    Big Blue likes this.
  8. Neve 8078

    Neve 8078 Active Member

    I'm just saying if you put your mind to it, it can be done... it's not rocket science... and "unknown pleasures" is just as seminal a 1st album as those by the beatles, velvet underground and the stone roses...
  9. jimhb

    jimhb Forum Resident

    Denver, CO, USA
    I was thinking last night.. why not just go for the best pressing possible now? I mean, the original tapes have so long they can last, so, instead of them slowly degrading, why not create the best possible pressing now? One can dream, right?
    c-eling likes this.
  10. c-eling

    c-eling New horizons come and go...

    Labels don't want to give up their 'Golden Goose' ...:winkgrin:
    I'm a firm believer in this thought.
    jimhb likes this.
  11. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Just picked this up today at lunch, looking forward to comparing against my US 2007 LP, which I really like.
  12. jimod99

    jimod99 Daddy or chips?

    Vienna, Austria
    The 40th Anniversary release is a repress of the 2015, which was cut from the 2007 masters, ai they should be pretty much identical.
  13. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Wasn’t there a difference between the US and UK 2007 masters? I’ve read quite a few comments from people that stated they found the red vinyl different sounding to the 2007 US master.

    I think they were mastered by two different people. Also, wasn’t there some differences to whether certain instruments were panned left, right or Center?
    Echoes Myron likes this.
  14. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    Yes, you're correct on a lot of those. The original "red" vinyl first pressing which was cut by George Peckham is the defacto pressing that features Martin Hannetts production etc. The instruments were panned differently to the current remasters. In reverse to what they should be or centered instead of panned left or right. The new remasters don't sound as desolate as the original porky cut... The general sound on the new masters to my ears are different to the original.

    I'll try to explain..... and not confuse you too much, as there's some conflicting info out there that doesn't make sense. i've done some more investigation work on this since i spoke about it last... And it just gets so confusing... So bear with me.

    In late 2006, early 2007 Unknown Pleasures was digitally remastered for Warners, and the end result was tragic (apparently) and the band rejected the mastering. In the words of someone that was there (someone on this forum) the band instructed the mastering engineer (whoever that was) to go back to the original master tapes to cut new masters.... This all happened in the US. Not the UK. New masters were cut, and the sound of these (on vinyl at least) were excellent. These remasters were pressed and sold in 2007 by Rhino in the US and Warners in the UK. The dead wax on all these US remasters (Closer and Still included) feature the exact same dead wax etchings as found on the original pressings. The UK remasters didn't feature those dead wax etchings

    If you check the Abbey Road engineer archive you will find Frank Arkwrights page, on that page is his resume where he states he remastered all the Joy Division albums in 2007. Frank WASN'T the remastering engineer for the US remasters as his sig isn't on the dead wax of those pressings, or the UK pressings for that fact in 2007. Instead, on the UK/Europe pressings you get on the dead wax just a bar code number which is totally different to the US number

    The packaging also on the US Rhino pressings was better than the UK remasters. In the US pressings you get the record in a poly-lined sleeve, along with an exact reproduction of a first pressing inner cardboard sleeve, complete with round corners. The attention to detail on those early US Rhino pressings is second to none.... The US Rhino and the UK pressing has a label that clearly states "remastered from the original master tapes".

    Shoot forward to 2015 and the next remastering campaign and Frank Arkwright spent time in Abbey Road remastering not only the Joy Division catalogue, but also the New Order catalogue as well. The 2015 remasters clearly have Franks signature on the dead wax..FA..... Something that was missing from the 2007 pressings. There was also, the requisit bar code numbers, which again were different to the numbers from the 2007 pressings. The labelling on the 2015 remasters states "cut from the 2007 remasters" so we can assume they were cut from the 2007 masters.... But were they? Frank didn't work on them in 2007, and I can hear a difference between the US Rhino and the 2015 masters. At the end of the day both the 2007 and the 2015 remasters are nothing like the first pressing, and that goes for Closer and Still also. the new ruby red anniversary pressing is from the 2015 masters and again features FA on the dead wax, along with the bar code numbers.

    Make out of all that what you will...... I love my Rhino 2007 remaster with the original etchings...... It sounds brilliant, and is better than the CD that was released at the time. I used to have an original Porky pressing.... I still regret selling it to this day.
  15. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Well at least I’m not crazy because in comparing my copies last night, you could almost get the impression that the new 2019 ruby red vinyl is remixed. I’m sure it’s not but the drums sound different, the vocals seem to have a new echo on them, and it seems much more in your face compared to the US 2007.

    I love them both, very happy to have this 2019 vinyl pressing, but the 2007 US LP sounds incredible.

    Thank you for your very detailed response, very informative.
  16. Willowman

    Willowman Forum Resident

    London, UK
    Unless I'm losing my mind (possible) the 2007 UK pressings DID include the dead wax etchings. They're on the 2007 'In memory' box too.
  17. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    You are correct, they were on the In Memory pressings..... I had heard, rightly or wrongly that the In Memory were cut from tape and not digital. The US Rhino states remastered from the original master tapes, the same as the UK. But I still think they were mastered by different people.... certainly not Frank unless he forgot to sign his signature on the dead wax. I had a 2007 Unknown Pleasures UK remaster and it DIDN'T have the etchings... And they're not shown as on the dead wax on Discogs either. The only releases that feature the dead wax etchings according to Discogs is the US Rhino release. so maybe the In Memory set were created from the US pressings.

    2007 US Rhino - Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures

    • Barcode (Sticker): 0 8122 73395 1 7
    • Matrix / Runout (Outside Etchings): S-61344 73395-1-A This is the way FACT 10 Outside-1
    • Matrix / Runout (Inside Etchings): S-61345 73395-1-B Step FACT 10 Inside-1

    2007 UK Warners - Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures

    • Barcode: 8 25646 40151 2
    • Matrix / Runout: 2564640151 A-2
    • Matrix / Runout: 2564640151 B-2
    • Label Code: LC00253
    • Rights Society: GEMA/MCPS
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
    Echoes Myron likes this.
  18. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    And for completion... Here's the info for the 2015 Frank Arkwright remasters.. the Anniversary remaster is pressed from these masters. both UK and US were pressed from these as far as I know

    2015 - Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures

    • Barcode (Text - sticker): 8 25646 18390 6
    • Barcode (Scanned - sticker): 825646183906
    • Matrix / Runout (Side A - variation 1): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 A2 3+ F.A.
    • Matrix / Runout (Side B - variation 1): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 B1
    • Matrix / Runout (Side A - variation 2): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 A2 F.A. T=ε
    • Matrix / Runout (Side B - variation 2): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 B1 V+T
    • Matrix / Runout (Side A - variation 3): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 A2 3=x F.A.
    • Matrix / Runout (Side B - variation 3): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 B₁ V∧≺
    • Matrix / Runout (Side A - variation 4): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 A2 F.A.
    • Matrix / Runout (Side B - variation 4): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 B1 +V∧
    • Matrix / Runout (Side A - variation 5): 0825646183906 BE77559-01 A2 F.A. 3=-
    Echoes Myron likes this.
  19. Willowman

    Willowman Forum Resident

    London, UK
    OK, I did have the 2007s and they did have the etchings unless, as I say, I’m going nuts.
  20. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    You are spot on regarding that. As good as the 2015 remaster is the stereo image is nothing like an original Peckham. I have a VERY high quality needle drop of a first pressing, and A/B testing against both the 2007 and the 2015 there are differences. For a start on the remasters they swapped the stsreo image around, so for example instead of having Bass guitar on the left and Lead guitar on the right, they're reversed.... The opposit way around. You say it seems a bit more "In your face".... you're not wrong, and Interzone is a fine example of that. On the remaster the guitar has been mixed so it's more central in the soundstage, more in your face.... Where on the Porky, it's not mixed like that at all, and has more "air" to it.
    Echoes Myron and Vinyl Fan 1973 like this.
  21. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    The US pressings were imported ... so maybe you had one of those. I got mine from a dealer in France, still sealed when i bought it. I also have a hessian copy of Still from 2007... that's a US Rhino I bought from Amazon UK
  22. Vinyl Fan 1973

    Vinyl Fan 1973 "They're like soup, they're like....nothing bad"

    Thanks for this explanation, it's much appreciated. How much does the 2007 US LP hold it's own compared with your original Peckham needle drop? When the 2007 came out I actually read a lot of negative feedback on the sound, which I never understood. On my system it's a very enjoyable listen, although I have never heard an original copy. I'm curious how much different it could be if the original master tapes were used?
  23. gibby299

    gibby299 Forum Resident

    i have a 1980 UK. Seems to be the 5th pressing according to Discogs. It is a TownHouse. I assume it very similar to a Porky?
  24. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    The negative feedback regarding the 2007 remasters i think was more aimed ate the CD release rather than the vinyl. I have both. the 2007 release is good compared to the original Peckham needledrop. I had a 2015 and gave it away as i preferred the 2007 over it so that Might give you the answer you're looking for.

    Last year i also gave away my 2015 copy of Closer, after I snaffled a MINT UNPLAYED 1st pressing of Closer for £50!! It was night and day, and the first pressing pissed all over the 2015 release. I haven't heard the 2007 Closer, but if it's anything like the UP 2007 pressing i'm sure that's good also.
    Vinyl Fan 1973 and Echoes Myron like this.
  25. Willowman

    Willowman Forum Resident

    London, UK
    2007 pressings were very close to the originals in sound. They did a great job on them.
    nitsuj, swedgin, bettsaj and 2 others like this.

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