Interesting arrangement. My subs are on the outside of the speakers. I would think toeing the speakers in on such a radical angle would not work well nor having them so close to the outside walls. Maybe this is the preferred arrangement when using them for a home theater set up???
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I suppose this is a Rel demo setup, from the marketing posters at the back? Rel would know how to setup speakers as they always use the sumiko master chef protocol. So I really doubt this is a HT setup but really a proper hi fi setup which would be the best for that room (which is what the sumiko setup is all about). Could also be a usual 'dealer-setup' of course .
Hmm...I don't think so. My guess it is a show in which this was the room they had to work with and therefore they crammed in as much as they could and were less concern about a perfect set-up than they were about showing off the speakers.
Hi all. Well I've been living with the Ref 1s for a few weeks and I have to say they are outstanding speakers. The tonal balance is the best than I've ever heard recorded music sound. It's also cool hearing low notes in familiar music that I just never heard before on the LS50s. The soundstage is huge, in fact it's taken some getting used to compared to the LS50s, it can be overwhelming at times (in a good way). The one thing I have been struggling with is getting the stereo image right. I'm not sure if it is me just needing to get used to the much larger soundstage or if I need to try a lot harder with speaker setup. At first I struggled with getting the image centered, and went back and forth with lots of toe-in, very little, one speaker toed in and the other not, etc. Right now I seem to have it pretty well centered. Voices are in the middle, where they should be. The issue is, I am still hearing lots of sounds that sound like they are coming from either way out left or way out right. It's disorientating sometimes. Do I just need to get used to the much bigger and fuller soundstage? Or is my speaker placement off? Thanks!
Sounds like you have it set pretty close to perfect. Curious on your dimensions from front and side walls along with your toe-in if you do indeed toe-in the speakers. In my setup I hear performers all over the place. On very infrequent recordings I even hear an instrument directly off to my left or right in line with my listening position, yes this far out into the room. My understanding concerning this positioning is that it is due to that track being out of phase to the recording itself. I am assuming that it was done purposeful or maybe just by mistake. This of course is not the norm but yes it happens and it is startling to me when it does happen. These speakers are known for their wide and deep sound stage, so I would get used to it, sit back and enjoy when you have one of those special recordings that can produce a crazy wide and deep sound stage. For the most part though most recordings fall decently wide, slightly past the speakers or at them and in line with the speakers or a little bit layered toward the front wall. It is always a treat however when a crazy wide and deep recording passes through my drivers and creates a sound stage that extends past the side and front walls, or at least it sounds that way.
Thanks @mds. It has taken me a while to get used to the sound. They are a HUGE step up from the LS50s. I used the words overwhelming and disorientating in my last post and I really meant it. Glad to hear I'm not going crazy. I think I know now what soundstage and imaging are; I don't think I fully understood those terms before, but now hearing theses compared to the LS50s, I really get it. There are instruments all over the stage, popping in and out, on the side, in the front and in the back. It's crazy! It's almost a psychedelic experience on great recordings. Listening to Blackstar by David Bowie right now and there is just so much going on that I never heard before. To answer your questions: Right speaker: 28" from side wall (nearest front corner or speaker), 33" from front wall (center of front baffle) Left speaker: 43.5" from side wall, 29.5" from front wall Toe-in: yes, see photos below Speakers are 9' 7" apart (logo to logo) and the center of them is 8' 7" from my listening position (see photos) When I was dialing them in, I was able to move the center of the image by moving the speakers, but I can't remember how I did it now! Is there a rule to follow for moving the image center, e.g. moving the left speaker out will move the center of the image left? Or is it entirely trial and error and/or room-dependent?
It is always room dependent and trial and error so you do the best with what you got. Your room and how it is furnished will dictate what you can do with the speakers. Symmetry placement is critical, so when it can be done it should be a high priority. If one speaker is 33 inches off the side wall the other should be 33 inches off its side wall. Likewise each should be the same distance out from the front wall. This is ideal, and not everyone has a room that will let them do this or a spouse that will cooperate. If yours does not, and I mean your room, which I believe to be the case then yes experiment. Typically the Reference Series does not need toe-in and if you do toe the speaker in it should be almost unnoticeable. This was designed into the speaker and it was probably designed with the notion that the speakers would be symmetrically placed in a listening room. In your room a little more toe-in might be helpful, experiment. You may find that some toe-in helps, but I have found it peaks the upper range a bit too much for my taste. Those two chairs in front of the speakers could possibly be taming the high end a bit. These chairs in front of the speakers will have an effect on the sound and sound stage your speakers will produce. You might experiment for one listening session and move them out of the way and then listen to hear what difference that makes. It may mean moving the speakers again and reducing the toe-in, but well worth the experiment. The equipment cabinet also is in the way in terms of having the speakers float out into the room. The more the speakers are floated out into the room the better they sound, less room boundary effect. I understand that most of this cannot be accommodated in your case so yes moving the speakers positions even inches will be important to find the best sound and sound stage. The first thing that I would do if I were in your situation is to move those two chairs out of the way and just listen to see what difference this makes along with covering up that glass coffee table with some sort of sound absorbing material, like a small rug, or quilt, just as an experiment. If these couple of changes makes a significant improvement, well...you might consider removing the chairs and maybe even a different coffee table. Glass is a very reflective surface and the coffee table is rather big and directly in front of the listening position, so the sound must be bouncing off of this surface and I can only guess that it may be playing tricks with the sound stage. The bottom line is the speakers appear to be in a multi-purpose room that might be shared with a spouse therefore making it the ideal music listening room isn't going to happen, so experiment with placement and moving furniture out of the way the best that you can. I do highly recommend that you try one weekend to just remove those two chairs and try to tame the glass coffee table and listen to see if you notice a difference in the sound of the speakers and the sound stage it produces. If once the furniture has been moved and you determine that they were indeed affecting the sound in a bad way you might consider some kind of compromise in the room layout. Furniture or Better Sound, well for me it is always better sound but for others it might be the furniture, oh well, to each their own. You do have a really nice room, so going all out to change it just for the speakers probably does not make sense at this point in your life so experiment with their placement and do the best you can with what you have to work with. I was lucky I was able to talk my wife out of the living room. I then removed all the furniture and set it up as a dedicated music room, but I think I am the exception in being able to convince a spouse that they don't need their living room any more.
Thanks for your detailed reply @mds, it is greatly appreciated. Apologies for my slow reply, it's been a busy (and hectic) couple of weeks. You're correct that this is a shared room and my wife does love the table and chairs (and so do I actually), so no luck there! However, I do have some good news to report. As it turns out (and as you can see from my measurements in the last post), I wasn't even following the equilateral triangle rule. So I moved the speakers closer to each other and voila! Much better imaging. It's still not perfect as the distance from each speaker to their respective side walls is different, and I can't do anything about that. But the sound now is good enough to the point that I am not constantly fiddling with it. Thanks again for all your good advice.
Hallo friends, I hope your are all right in these times. It gives some kind of ease of mind listening to miles or whatever helps.
At times like these, it is nice to have these escapes. For me, the ability to put some hours into my newly acquired Ref 1s while working from home is a bit of silver lining. If we are going to have a soundtrack of these days, might as well make ‘em sound good! Stay safe and healthy!
I’ve been considering both of these speakers as an upgrade from my Monitor Audio Silver 100s so I’d be interested to hear if you ever manage to make this comparison!
Hallo again, Times continue to be very bizarre like in a b movie but not funny at all, and for a little escape of this rea.lity a have some jimi,s voodoo chile at insane levels of volume and fortunatly the Kef speakers deliver it all
