Yes preorders can be a bit risky, the screencaps of the BD look good, I am "almost" certain the 4k should look good. Of course, someone could decide a teal look will make the movie look more modern In regard of favorite vs favourite it is a point to consider but there is no guarantee the person lives overseas. He could be someone who migrated to the US but learned English somewhere else and he is unsure of what to use. I constantly use different spellings myself because I know most people reading my posts would spell words differently to me. Colour is the word I have the most problem with. If you read my posts in half of them I will say "colour" and the other half "color". So, I am part of the problem. BTW: I've skipped the BD of war so the 4K is a must for me.
Let’s call it “9 Great …” This from bfi.org.uk, dated 5 August 2021, by David Parkinson: 10 great Technicolor films [subtitled - I LOVE this!] Classics from the time when colour on film glistened like wet paint. 1) The River (1951) 2) The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) 3) The Wizard of Oz (1939) 4) Fantasia (1940) 5) Heaven Can Wait (1943) 6) Cobra Woman (1944) 7) Black Narcissus (1947) 8) An American in Paris (1951) 9) Niagara (1953) 10) Vertigo (1958) 11) Amarcord (1973) I think you can see the problem - a “10 great” list with 11 items and … the last 2 may have had IB prints made, but I say this does NOT make them “Technicolor films”! By the way, “Cobra Woman” is part of the current Kino Lorber “Spring into Summer” sale at $9.99! And one of their best 3-strip releases, in my opinion.
Thanks for the Cobra Woman mention although I've pretty much exhausted my Kino purchases and probably couldn't come up with enough to satisfy the $50 threshold for free shipping. Amazon looks to be my best bet where it's $15.
Wow, talking about color differences in prints/versions of films, I watched Pandora and the Flying Dutchman (1951) a few nights ago. It's been a long time since I've seen such a miscast like James Mason as The Dutchman. My god, this could have been a cool movie if the role had been given to somebody with charisma and a little dash of dashing, maybe. Somebody who could play off of Ava Gardner in a meaningful way. Anyway, I'm not really dogging James Mason; he's a great character actor. He just isn't leading man material. But the picture quality? Pretty good. What I don't get, however, is how they claim that the newest restoration is the correct color timing. See the photo below. On the left is the unrestored version, which has a color grading that reflects what one would expect from Technicolor. On the right, is what the George Eastman House restored using an IB print from Martin Scorsese's collection and a 16mm IB print for further reference, with the claim that "...to more closely replicate the true look of a release print." Okay, that's dandy, but if the "restored" version on the right is closer to what it should look like, then how did previous prints look more like the one on the left? There could be an Eastman intermediate in the "unrestored" version. I haven't seen it. The restored version looks like Jack Cardiff, though. It definitely has that British look. I'm just wondering how we got from point A to point B.
How about Suspiria (1977); is that a Technicolor film? I would say so. The set colors, designs, wardrobe, etc., were all constructed with Technicolor in mind. It was shot on Eastman Color Negative 100T 5254/7254 film, but sent to the Technicolor lab in Rome, Italy to make dye transfer prints. It was one of the last, if not the last film to use the dye transfer process. When the film was restored for 4K release, the original DP, Luciano Tovoli, going back to a IB print to color grade it in HDR. The results are amazing. On another note, I have the following on order from KL: The Adventures of Tom Sawyer Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves The Bounty (Special Edition) Cobra Woman (Special Edition) The Phantom Of The Opera (1925) I've owned Phantom for years now, but it was time to upgrade to the restored version that KL put out. Also, it might sound like heresy, but I've always thought that The Bounty (1984) was the best version of this tale. Anthony Hopkins, Mel Gibson, and Daniel Lewis were off the chain good, especially Hopkins. I've never owned a copy on Blu-Ray, just the sad DVD.
SUSPIRIA (1977) as a Technicolor film? I would say NO! Just because a film might mimic a Technicolor “look” whether accidentally or by design (or IB printing) doesn’t make it a Technicolor film, in my opinion - any more than Marty Scorsese’s efforts in THE AVIATOR to replicate that look via a LUT (look up table, as I understand it basically a “digital filter” implemented in a digital intermediate used instead of an interpositive). There’s an interesting article from American Cinematographer magazine I found by googling “The Aviator Technicolor LUT” - a key quote for me from Visual Effects Supervisor Rob Legato: “After going through all of Marty’s visual research, it occurred to us that perhaps the filtration of the three strip taking camera created the color pallete that we know as Technicolor - that it wasn’t necessarily the dye-imbibition process applied to the print.” I have the SUSPIRIA (1977) 4K disc, too - spectacular, yes but … For “Bounty” my own go-to is the 1962 version starring Marlon Brando - Ultra Panavision 70 and W-I-D-E at 2.76:1 (also LONG at just under 3 hours!)
I have the first two on your list and will get Cobra Woman at some point. I got Ali Baba along with Son Of Ali Baba , The Arabian Nights and Thief Of Bagdad in a Sabu themed haul. Okay, he wasn't in Son Of but it fit well with the others. Is there a good Jungle book? The Sabu one, I mean?
I’d like to know who has the best blu ray of the 1940 THIEF OF BAGDAD, too - another British production and it seems they were MUCH better about preserving their original camera negatives than we here in the US - seems like it could make a great restoration using all the modern digital tools! Criterion did a nice looking one years ago but dvd ONLY.
Yes, from Germany. The encode is a tiny bit on the weak side, but it's still a good watch. It has its issues, but it's probably the best available. I don't see any studios running over themselves to put it out. Maybe KL one day.
Then what's the difference between Suspiria and the hundreds of other films shot on Eastman stock, yet processed by Technicolor from the '50s and '60s? I call all of them Technicolor films, because it's definitely not Eastman printing; it's Technicolor IB printing, which imparts its own special magic that can only be Technicolor. Now, how that translates over into home video is a different story. Most impart a good Technicolor look, even though shot on Eastman. One gem that immediately comes to mind is How the West Was Won (1962). It looks as beautiful as three-strip. But there are many others, to varying degrees. In other words, it doesn't have to be shot with the Blimp to be Technicolor. At least in my view (for what it's worth). Oh, that's right. The DVD set, yeah?
Except Vertigo used a problematic Eastman film stock and the Fellini only had dye transfer prints made.
Yes, the VERTIGO 4K looks great, but it’s in SPITE of, not BECAUSE of - an outlier! TALES OF HOFFMAN is 3-strip and shot WITHOUT the blimp! I don’t call ANY of the films shot on color negative and IB printed by Technicolor “Technicolor films,” no matter how beautiful those prints may look - and of course that’s all irrelevant when it comes to video discs since almost without exception they’re mastered from sources OTHER than those IB prints. As always, “YMMV” …
Okay, then by that logic the reverse should also hold true, i.e. any three-strip Technicolor film printed on Eastman stock cannot be called Technicolor. How many of those do we have on home media? Many! So, Technicolor or not Technicolor?
Technicolor, no. Technicolor-like, yes. Still, let's cut the people who master these films for us some slack. They are really trying to get it right and most of the time, they do. Question, is my three-track to lacquer Nat King Cole stuff authentic? No, technically the songs are remixed. Doesn't mean they don't (sometimes) sound better than the old mixes...
Referencing the Eastman video on the dye transfer process in Technicolor near the start of this thread shows the look of the dyes which when combined in transparent layers viewed by back lighting will fluoresce a distinct hue/saturation characteristic that is completely different from regular color negative film's dye mixing function process. I've worked with oils, acrylic and watercolor pigments when I painted photo realistic images as a teen. Most of the standard primary colors from tubes of paint look different depending on their suspension medium, dyes being the most pure and intense in representing true color. The formulation of the dyes for Bayer array digital sensors are the most pure and intense which is why they can reproduce reality so well as color gamut spaces go. Traditional dye transfer process Technicolor is considered an ancient way to reproduce reality but in doing so evokes a more dream like feel due to the low tech aspect of its process. There's an emotional filter involved from folks who respond to this look much like why a lot of folks hated the look of the the restoration of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel with its bright and cheery colors compared to the former muted antique look.
It seems to me the separating of the IP into three separations could be done digitally as well. It should be less costly than doing it optically, and then each digital separation could be run through the alignment software. I don't think this has ever been done before so there's sure to be some issues to be worked out. Derek
Yes, when I thought about it a little more, a film scanner would undoubtedly provide access to the three color channels (RGB) easily in its software - there would still be a lot of work to do with dust and scratch (even MOLD) removal as well as pixel- level alignment as is done for (scans of!) 3-strip camera original negatives. I’m guessing that this is basically how it IS being done. I’m GRATEFUL for the amazing work these restorers are doing! Have a look at the review and screenshots that just went up this afternoon at blu-ray.com for Warner Archive’s “Adventures of Don Juan,” out July 19.
I can't say the story interests me but it certainly looks sumptuous judging by those shots so I'm in!
I was thinking something similar but by designing a digital camera with a Bayer Array red, green & blue color/light filtering system except use the original cyan, yellow and magenta 3 strip filtering gels on the sensor used in the Wizard Of Oz camera where black & white gray scale representing the filtered separations are what's output and used as positives for IB color dye transfer mixing process. It's the physical nature of mixing dyes on clear acetate is what gives old Technicolor its look as shown in that Eastman Kodak video. Maybe throw in the "skeleton" black forth positive to tone down the intense color as our host mentioned is missing in traditional classic Technicolor.
The 3-strip camera had a GREEN filter and its complement, a MAGENTA filter (which is RED plus BLUE). The MAGENTA filter passed RED plus BLUE to two strips of film “sandwiched” together emulsion to emulsion. The first film was exposed through its BASE to an orthochromatic (blue sensitive only) emulsion, ON TOP of which was coated a RED FILTER LAYER (washed away in processing) then on to the panchromatic (sensitive to all colors of light) black & white emulsion that then records the red record. So a complex and VERY clever system! Google Technicolor 3-strip camera and you can see illustrations that will help you to get a “mental picture” of the innards with “prism” (optical block with semi- silvered mirror that splits the light and directs it to the filters - straight through for green, 90 degrees for magenta). Some will even show a camera threaded with (dummy) film that shows one of the film strips as red.
Yeah, you're right about the capture/filtering process to arrive at gray scale B&W positives for dye transfer IB color positives. Hears an article I bookmarked from the previous discussions on Technicolor where the original camera did use red, green and blue filters... Technicolor 3 Strip It's the final matrices cyan, magenta and yellow hues you have to get right to get the classic look or else it will just be an over saturated mess. Color mixing of dyes is complex.
