Need advice on Qobuz Hi-Res Streaming...

I just tried what you suggested. I cannot hear a difference. How do you find that they improve the listening experience as you say (in your opinion)? Improved sound (in what way)? More stable performance? Something else? Just curious. JRiver has so many different options and parameters available in the audio tools, I was getting lost down a rabbit hole when setting up things initially. I'm always interested in improvements and optimizations, so thank you for your advice.

 

Having just worked this out -- and I love Qobuz, by the way, so glad to hear you are liking it -- this is what I would suggest:

Listen through the Qobuz app for PC. In the app, click on your name (upper-right-hand corner) and then select "music playing." Select streaming quality "hi-res 24/192." (This is your ceiling and default; you can always play at another resolution in the app.) For audio output device, select the Rega in an exclusive mode. Then you need to go into Windows sound device settings and configure the Rega so that it is permitted to run in exclusive mode. (It's a checkbox.) That's key. Finally, when you are running Qobuz with these settings, you need to make sure other apps that may run in exclusive mode are closed, so there is no conflict. So no MediaMonkey, in my case.

Now I know that these steps work as my DAC (Topping D50s) will show the resolution of each track I play, and until I'd done all the above, it was showing the same resolution for each track regardless of source. But now I've got it right.

And . . . can I hear the difference? Eh, I'm not sure. But at least I know I'm getting what I've paid for!

Good luck!

 

Well, I could say that it improved the imaging, made the stage wider and the bass tight in the living room but that would be a lie since I also played with moving the couch and toeing in the speakers and also upgraded the receiver. However in the study I have another JRiver setup where I also listen with headphones and I think that the SoX re sampling improved the clarity of some sounds.

I'll try to be more specific: There is a track that I use to evaluate headphones and I noticed that a faint percussion sound that I'm used to hear in the background is a bit more distinct with TPDF dithering and SoX re sampling. YMMV of course.

 

Yes, I'll second that! They will only make a difference, of course, if the signal is being resampled.

 

By the way, OP, and I just noticed this, your alias here ("Tinnitus Andronicus") is awesome! I wish I'd thought of it . . .

 

Yes, I did exactly what you said and 192khz streaming is all glitchy and so I must reduce the settings in Qobuz to 96. ASIO output plays 192 files but is unstable and keeps crashing. I don't know why some Windows users are getting this problem but it's not my Rega DAC which plays 192khz files properly via USB WASAPI or ASIO in Jriver.

 

Opinions are split on the best re-sampling and dithering algorithms, and the differences can often be subtle (even very subtle). Here are a couple of JRiver threads on Sox and TPDF dither:

NEW: SoX Resampling

A different kind of dithering?

Bob Katz is a mastering engineer, so is used to listening for small differences, and likely has a system which allows him to hear them.

You could consider starting a thread to ask Steve Hoffman for his views on these topics (there may already be threads about this in Hardware), and whether he has examples that highlight the differences.

If you don't hear any differences, then you have one (or two) less things to worry about.


Did you try the JRiver WDM driver yet?

 

Question for those who have made purchases at their download store: I know that they have significant discounts to subscribers of their Sublime plan, but do the regular prices apply to everyone or must one subscribe to their Studio Premier plan?

 

Usually when the audible benefits get down to this level of subtlety, I tend to not worry about it. I will check it out in this case, since no great investment of effort or time is involved. Probably I will scan over those two discussions about SoX and TPDF and if informed audiophiles are claiming it makes a positive difference without any drawbacks, I will change my settings and not worry about it. I have a hard time hearing really subtle differences. I am not saying it doesn't matter, just saying I don't have the hyper developed sense of hearing that a mastering engineer does. But at least I am honest with myself in not fooling myself into believing I hear a difference when I actually don't. I have a confession to make, when I bought my new system a few years ago I ended up spending about $3K on super fancy cables from the Cable Co. Probably it was a big stupid waste of money. I let the salesman convince me, and I had the bread to spend, so I did it. Probably would have been just as well off with Blue Jean Cables and not been able to tell a difference. But now, if something is working and sounding good to my ears, I tend to leave it alone. I never would have started this thread were it not for the fact that Qobuz is mangling the 192kHz streamed audio such that it is unlistenable. Downsampling to 96 is a temp fix for me, and I'm hoping they fix it so I can listen at full resolution to all files on their site.

I am pleased that this thread has led me to gain a better understanding of my JRiver setup and led to me tweaking things for the better, even if I can't hear a difference yet. This forum is great, with all the smart and dedicated listeners here who are willing to share their experience and learning.

But every time I read one of your posts I think of that book I have on my shelf, Black Elk Speaks. Mitakuye Oyasin!

Nope. I am feeling reluctant to run all the audio from my PC thru JRiver, for some reason I don't like doing that. Even if it does give bit perfect exclusive playback. It's a workaround and I am just going to wait for Qobuz to fix the bug. This forum has enabled me to determine that the problem is not due to some wrong setting on my part, at least.

 

Remember: the SoX re-sampling and choice of dither are ONLY concerns if you have the DSP option in JRiver active, i.e., you are up- or down-sampling the audio (dither is only relevant when shrinking the wordlength, say to make a 16-bit word from 24-bit data). If for, example, you thought things sounded best via your DAC when everything was converted to 16-bit/88.2 kHz, then you would want the best re-sampling and dither options. If your DAC(s) can handle all the audio options natively (and sounds equally good doing so), then you may never need to engage the signal processing (for this purpose, you may want to engage it for other purposes like EQ, bass management, etc.).

As to my user name, you are exactly right. There was a recent thread on the story behind user names, but it seems to have disappeared.

You don't need to run all the audio from your PC through JRiver, just Qobuz, then it will switch automatically using the zone feature as you want.

With regard to 24/192 and Qobuz, is there a thread somewhere about the issue?

 

At the risk of being humiliated with a dumb question, has anyone confirmed bit perfect out of the windows Qobuz app?

I ask because I can't do it.

I have gone through every setting available and only found three ways to make it work with my DAC.
Audirvana works.
MConnect casting the phone connection to the DAC's network bridge with Bubble UPnP works.
Roon seems to work based on what I've read. I've not actually tried it.

Any configuration from the Qobuz app ends up at best run thru the Win10 audio stack. At worst is silent, the beta UPnP.

I've tried all of my WASAPI exclusives, including sending it through JRiver. JRiver sees the input as 24 bit even when the Qobuz app is playing a cd sourse

One of the most confusing is using USB WASAPI Exclusive to the PS Audio and the display on the DAC bounces around between 16 and 24 bit every couple of seconds.

I've given up a few times only to come back to it again. Emailed Qobuz and they don't know.

Uninstalled the Q app.
Changed USB drivers back and forth with no changes.

I can't get it to work bit perfect and don't know what else to try.

JRiver has no problem. Audirvana has no problem. MConnect has no problem. Q App doesn't work for me.

 

I understand and agree with what you wrote. Most of the time I don't waste my precious free time on analytical listening sessions and therefore I'm blissfully ignorant of the subtle differences that may drive certified audiophiles up the walls. It's very difficult for me to have an opinion on the quality of many audio components because beside noticing large differences in the sound image or vocal clarity I can't hear or notice anything so I usually try to weasel my way out by making vague an non committed statements.

You are not the only one who fell for aggressive sales techniques - I bought once an Audioquest Jitterbug that was supposed to de-crappify the USB connection from my media PC to the DAC. The guy that sold it was looking so mortified that I dared to use a PC for HiFi audio that I broke down and decided to try it. It does....nothing. I mean nothing exactly in the same meaning as zilch, nada and rien de rien, but since I'll have to pull out the PC and battle the cable monster in order to unplug the Jitterbug I prefer to indulge in my laziness and leave it there.

I like the more obscure and technical aspects of JRiver because I'm a tinkerer by nature but I'll be the first one to admit that their user interface is more "programmer accessible" than user friendly. The documentation is lacking, the Wiki is outdated and sometime not even relevant to the platform you are using and their forum is sometime right on the side of bizarre. However I have not found a better media center package and since I'm also a videophile and have a rather large collection of movies and series and it's also easier for me to spot problems in images instead of sound it looks like I'll stay with JRiver for the foreseeable future.

 

Very sorry to hear that you're not having any success with this. I'm as mystified about what might be interfering with your Qobuz working right as I am about why mine is not playing 192khz via WASAPI exclusive mode.

My Windows Qobuz app is certainly sending bit perfect audio using WASAPI exclusive or ASIO via USB to my Rega DAC because the front panel display shows when I switch from 44 to 96 to 192 files within Qobuz. I tried it with my OPPO DAC and that screen display also shows the change in sampling frequency. For me, the problem is it won't play 192khz audio without horrible digital mangling of the sound using WASAPI exclusive, it will play 192 using ASIO but the ASIO audio output in Qobuz is not stable, it keeps closing Qobuz and launching JRiver when I try to do it.

I got a relatively prompt and earnestly attentive response when I contacted Qobuz via their Help links. He gave me all kinds of detailed system specific info to report to him so they can research the problem, suggested a clean installation and told me how to do it, and said they are aware some Windows users are having problems with the app and they are working on it for the next update. Asked me if I want to be on the list to test the Beta apps and I said yes.

On the Amazon Music HD threads I read that Qobuz app was extremely buggy when first introduced and that it's been greatly improved, so my hopes are that this glitch will get fixed. And if it doesn't, then it's not a deal breaker, I can live with a 96khz limit to my streaming.

But I think I am going to give Black Elk's suggestion a try and report back here.

 

Yeah, I like to tinker and I spent weeks studying the wiki pages and trying a great many options in the audio tools, and customizing library views with keywords and every little detail. Once I got it set to what I thought was "the perfect setup" then I didn't want to mess with it again. I had to get past some inner resistance to give WASAPI a try and to change from ASIO but you convinced me it was better. I still can't tell any difference but it's fine, I'll leave it at WASAPI from now on. When I read your posts I thought that maybe you should be hired on as an editor for the JRiver wiki cos like you said it seems outdated and there are a number of holes. Would be great if they condensed and integrated the relevant facts and factors that are discussed in the Interact Forum into a wiki page so I don't have to read pages of discussion most of which I cannot understand. I chose JRiver cos that is what my hifi salesman recommended and I chose dBpoweramp because the cable salesman recommended it. I checked out Roon and Audirvana and one or two other choices, and went with JRiver MC24. Paid to upgrade to MC26 when it comes out. It's working great for me. Except when I submitted Qobuz streaming integration as a feature request for MC26 in the forum I got a curt rejection by Jim H that was disappointing. ""We will not be working with Qobuz or Tidal."

 

I am not changing any bit or sampling res in JRiver, UNLESS it is PCM audio above 192khz which is the max my Rega will convert, or UNLESS it is over 384khz PCM to my OPPO DAC, and I don't have any files that are above 192, so it's a moot point. I don't have it set to do any upsampling BUT when I look at the audio path while a track is playing I see the output of a 16bit file is upsampled to 24bit. I guess it is doing this on the fly for some reason, I don't understand, I didn't set it to upsample. But maybe bit depth is not involved in resampling and dither. See, I don't even have a clear understanding of all the appropriate terminology, I am still pretty new at all this. But the only serious DSP processing I've got going on is JRSS downmixing all surround files to 2ch since I don't have a surround setup and the USB inputs to both my Rega and OPPO don't handle surround format according to the manuals. I've got very few surround files in my library, basically just a few rips from DVDs that I don't play much.

 

Well, I've encountered a new problem with WASAPI output in JRiver when sending USB to my OPPO for surround and DSD playback. Every time I switch off the OPPO player the zone reverts to WASAPI Samsung which means it is output to my TV. I don't even have my TV connected to PC via USB. I don't get it. Guess I will switch it back to ASIO output for the OPPO at least. It was working fine and outputting direct audio bitstreaming the old way I had it. And it didn't keep changing the designated device output when the OPPO DAC was turned off.

For some reason when I open the dropdown list of available device outputs in JRiver audio tools, it only shows the OPPO WASAPI in the list when the OPPO is powered on. When it is shut off, it shows OPPO ASIO as an option. And although I set OPPO WASAPI last time, it reverts to the Samsung WASAPI output when the OPPO player is not powered on.

 

I would like to read it if there is, but I don't think so.

 

I just tried it. Followed your instructions and did NOT make JRiver my default audio device in Windows, only selected it in Qobuz using the Wasapi exclusive option. The sound comes out all garbled so it won't work. I do get a clear signal using the direct sound output under JRiver but then it is not bit perfect and appears to be downsampling 96khz to 44.

I am going to go back to using Wasapi exclusive mode output to Rega DAC and just continue downsampling 192 to 96 until Qobuz fixes this bug.

 

I only have the 24/96 tier of Qobuz so I can't try the 192. For me the sample rates show correctly, usually 44.1 or 96 but I can't try anything higher. The bit rate is what gets messed up, showing 24 bit on a 16 bit source, or worse, vacillating between 16 and 24 bits on the same 16 bit source within the same song as it is playing.

Audirvana plays it just fine, without JRiver or Qobuz apps running.
JRiver plays my library fine.
Using MConnect through Bubble UPnP links Qobuz to my DAC and plays fine, without the Q app running. It's a pain in the ass though and not ideal.

I wish JRiver would be willing to work with other vendors, or streaming companies to incorporate streaming. I'd be all over that MC upgrade.

 

Yes, that would be nice and I'll bet it would generate some business for them. I don't know why they're adamantly against it.

 

RE: JRiver WDM driver

I just tried looking for something on settings/configuration in Qobuz but couldn't find anything helpful. I'm a bit puzzled by your comment 'only selected it in Qobuz using the Wasapi exclusive option'. Are you conflating Qobuz and JRiver options, or do you really have this as a choice in Qobuz?

Here's why I ask. In TIDAL, for Settings I first select the Sound Output device from the list under Sound. In addition to the individual DACs, I see:

JRiver Media Center 25 (JRiver Media Center 25)

and that is it. There are no ASIO, WASAPI, etc. options here.

With JRiver 25 selected I then click on More Settings and there are three options:

Use Exclusive Mode
Force volume
Passthrough MQA

I have the first two on and the last off since my DACs do not have MQA decoding, and I want to control the volume externally.

Within JRiver I then have multiple options for each DAC, and can engage DSP, etc. if I want.

This works for TIDAL and all other apps, as I have also made WDM the default music output. I see 16/44.1 for CD-quality TIDAL files and 24/96 for MQA-encoded ones in JRiver.

It seems strange that it is not working for you, since I would expect the Qobuz desk-top app to behave the same as TIDAL's.

With my DACs I see/hear no difference between WASAPI and ASIO other than in the case of DoP as we discussed earlier.

It would be advantageous for you if you can get WDM to work, as your zone switching will operate in that case.


RE: streaming integration

They do not seem to believe that the streaming companies are going to last because they are losing so much money (Amazon and Apple can afford that to push other things towards the consumer), but that could just be a cover. They did try to integrate TIDAL, for one, some years ago, but after expending considerable resources to do it, there were apparently disagreements between the two camps about the user interface, and so the JRiver guys felt burned. So, don't hold your breath for this.

Of course, Roon has seemed to be able to do the integration, and while a lifetime Roon license is more costly, it may pay off for those who can get 20+ years of use from Roon (given that an annual JRiver license is around $25, though I appreciate that you do not need to update each year). Roon, of course, does offer features not in JRiver.

 

I'll will take a stab. Yes, from the Qobuz app you can see multiple output options for JRiver.

For me Qobuz shows a long list of audio output options, JRiver times three, PS Audio times three, Windows options, plus I have three wired network connections (PSA, DTV, and something else, maybe the TV), and some ASIO options that don't seem to work. When I try to select the ASIO options I get an error window in the Q App saying it could not connect.

 

Thank you for the detailed explanations, but what Kyhl posted above is indeed the case. Whether this is due to some error on my part, or a glitch in the Qobuz output scheme, I do not know. You stated that you have JRiver WDM driver as the default driver for your entire system, yes? Maybe that is why it works for you and not for me. At this point I have invested enough time in troubleshooting and attempting to find a fix that I am comfortable with leaving things as they are and downsampling all 192 Qobuz streams to 96 within Qobuz preferences, until they fix this bug. I don't really need zone switching when using Qobuz since my zone switching rules only apply to surround audio and DSD audio, which types are not streamed on Qobuz.

 

That is exactly what happened when I tried it. Apparently, the WDM driver works with some applications, but not others. Where the flaw lies is something I don't know.

 

I've had problems of various sorts like this with the Q0buz desktop app. At one point I dropped my Qobuz subscription because the music library was inadequate for my interests, but the library has improved greatly and with the new pricing I jumped back on recently, but since rejoining, I haven't touched the desktop app, I do everything via the phone app and USB Audio Player Pro or Bubble UPnP. I don't know if these streaming services are just more focused on the mobile experience because they think that that's the bigger interest for more consumers or what, but I find often they work better and than the desktop apps.