Need some advice on Ortofon MC20 Super MKII

Since I'm not an experienced user of different turntables and cartridges, I wanted to reach out for some help from vinyl fans around these forums
Basically, I kept in mind to go for Ortofon 2M Bronze for my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB DC, which had 2M Red with 2M Blue stylus swapped by myself about 2 years ago.
I read a lot of praise about MC cartridges, but the prices kept me off.

For now I have a pretty good chance to finally settle on the subject cartridge in NOS condition, but here come my concerns.
1. I understood that in order to hold this 10g cartridge properly on my tonearm (6g Pro-Ject 8.6cc) I need a heavier counterweight, as suggested by Pro-Ject FAQ. That's not a big deal and I can get it. Also, based on resonance calculator, the compilance of 16 is totally okay on my tonearm.
2. MC cartridges need an MC phono amp or step up transformer. I use Pioneer SA-9900 as my main amp which only has MM support (Phono1: 2.5mV/50kohm and Phono 2: 2.5-10mV with selectable 35kohm, 50kohm, 70kohm, 100kohm settings), but I consider to get Shure SUT which seems to be suitable for MC20 Super MKII.
3. 2M series has a height of 18mm, while MC20 S MKII is listed as 19mm. Since my tonearm is not height adjustable, does it mean that I can't properly utilize MC20 on my TT? I only saw one comment from a guy who tried to get rid of a hum on his Debut Carbon where he listed to be using MC20 MKII on his TT, which probably suggests that I'm save to use it as well...
4. Now I don't know if the sound of MC20 S MKII will be the best for the money, because I listen to rock and metal for the most part, so if anyone had such cart in their use could you tell if it is okay for "heavier" genres of music?

 

After reading all the info I could find about MC, SUTs and consulting to a far more experienced vinyl enthusiast, so far, I decided to go for it.
I already received the Shure SUT (supposedly 200/49k) and the cartridge. It's a stellar looking one. The seller told me it was refurbished by Ortofon and he bought it from Japan (has Japan sticker on the original box, plastic case and all the little Ortofon accessories).
Per Pro-Ject's recommendation, I've ordered the 00 counterweight (65g) to accommodate 10g weight of MC20 Super MKII on my tonearm.
Can't wait to hear Fritz Gyger Type 1 in action.
Maybe some might find my experience useful

 

So far so good. It just happened, that I didn't have the nuts for the Ortofon bolts and MC20 SII couldn't be hold without those on my tonearm.
Thankfully, our local hi-fi shop had 2.5x10 Ortofon non-magnetic bolts and nuts.

First of all - disconnecting the tonearm clips off 2M was PITA. I assume I broke the 2M since at least two pins came out with the clips, but that's anyway a different matter. My initial plan was to get 2M Bronze, which has different internals to Red/Blue body, so that's not something I grief about
Anyway, I installed the recommended 00 counterweight (per Pro-Ject recommendation), mounted my "new" cartridge, balanced the tonearm.
Anti-skating had to go to position 1 (the one closer to the tonearm bearing, "for 10-14 mN") because on regular 2 it caused the tonearm to move to the armrest.
Next thing was to get the right tracking force and setup the cartridge itself according to Pro-Ject protractor. Thanks to my friend who had digital scale - since Pro-Ject 8.6cc doesnt' have any additional adjustments, I wanted to be precise with at least the options available to setup. Got 1.8g exact.
I got very decent results using protractor (I think I'll make some more adjustments soon, just to be precise).
Now, I have a feeling that my MC20 Super MKII doesn't have the original stylus, which is Fritz Gyger Type 1 (4.5x80), because from the looks of it, the cantilever should be straight, and on my cartridge it has the usual "flat" bit of base for the diamond. Nevertheless, the diamond tip looks smaller than regular elliptical on my 2M Blue, so I assume it might be Shibata or something else we could call "advanced stylus shape". Of course it could be a different type of FG because some Ortofon models with those stylus shapes have a "regular" looking cantilever (like OM40). Again, the seller claimed "refurbished at Ortofon factory".
And now for the sound. I should note that I never heard any MC carts (except for Youtube samples and needledrops of the same track with different carts), so I didn't truly know what to expect. Plus I was worried if I was all correct with my adjustments. I assumed that I might hear better highs and air from advanced stylus shape and the sonic character of MC I read about, and actually that's what I got!
Now the vocals worried me a bit, especially on Nirvana - Nevermind (Pallas repress of BG cut) and that's why I decided to try out Phono 2 on my amp. It has 35kOhm setting which I actually settled on. From that point, the vocals were not sibilative in places and the general presentation was far more balanced. The sound itself became very open. Just for the sake of it, I decided to put Creedence Clearwater Revival - Bayou Country (recent Abbey Road Half Speed Mastering by Miles Showell). I know that HSM usually sounds a bit bumped up in high frequencies, so I thought if I have sibilance issues on that one, then I might've did something wrong with the adjustments or I chose the wrong cart... Nope, the sound was crystal clear without any unwanted harshness or distortion. The sound of ride cymbal was so impressively real that I stared into my left speaker - it really felt like it was hitting in front of me. And also the stereo effect was very prominent. Based on specs, I didn't expect much difference after my 2M Blue, since they share same separation, but in reality MC shows it's superiority on that one. And the dynamics were outstanding as well. I'd also say that the sound itself got more focused and all the nuances from the music (I would even say, from the instruments and vocals) are very clearly heard. Like on Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger (320 pressing) I could hear how Chris is using distortion techniques on some notes (the "grit" on some notes), while using clean tones on different ones (talking vocals). And the album sounded again very clear and without any harshness. Next stop was The Doors - The Doors (Mobile Fidelity 1981). I was especially interested in how the cart will handle Light My Fire, since it's on the end of Side A, plus I heard on 2 needledrops of that version of the album that during the last part, the sound becomes somewhat distorted and loses clarity - wow, not an issue on my system! Everything went exactly like on the start of the song sonic wise.
Last thing I tried was Megadeth - Peace Sells... But Who's Buying? (original 1986 UK pressing) which to me sounded a bit "mushy" on 2M Blue - while I turned the volume down a bit not to distract anyone in the night, the sound was very clear, separated and engaging... I'll continue my research today

So all and all, I'm pretty excited to re-listen to my collection of LPs and for now say that the cart plays rock music pretty nice. I guess all the needed adjustments and my theoretical compatibility with Esprit SB DC was right. DIY Shure SUT worked well too - I didn't hear any hum and there wasn't a case of low signal for sure.
If anyone can relate to my experience - feel free to comment, I'd like to hear some input from you Especially from experienced vinyl users who also use MC or advanced styluses.

 

Congrats, I used an MC20 MK II for 24 years and never had the feeling to upgrade.
At first (coming from an Ortofon MM system I thought, something is broken ... I just
wasn’t used to so many details and airiness.

My amp was a Pioneer SA 9500..

The Needle/Diamond seem to last extremely long, never had to change.

 

Thank you! That was partially why I decided to go for it with all the additional things like different counterweight, SUT etc. - I think it truly paid out. Will spin some more vinyl this week, and hopefully by the weekend I'll get the whole picture
But the "air" is definitely there, haha)

 

Something new for today - I decided to pinpoint some minor adjustments I might've missed, and came to the conclusion that I forgot to check overhang. So, for Pro-Ject it should be 18,5 mm. I don't have the proper gauge, but got very close (I hope) using just a ruler and approximately measuring the overhang from the center of the spindle to the cart tip. So, had another hour of realigning the cart with the protractor, haha) Today was harded, but I think I nailed it once again for both points.
Another interesting thing - I re-checked the weight before the adjustments (basically after my yesterday listening session) and the weight was 1.6g
I've taken a note for that and decided to try original recommended weight for the cart (again, I'm questionable regarding the stylus profile, since to me the cantilever doesn't look like original MC20 Super MK2 with FG Type 1) - the sound came out somewhat okay, but I felt like some spark was vanished. That "airy" quality. Immediately brought back 1.6g - voila, here's a stable bass with nice guitars, vocals and cymbals.

 

After yesterday correction, I've settled with protractor a little bit for today (mostly for the second position on the protractor) and my friedn brought a couple LPs (S&M by Metallica and Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Nightwish). Both albums feature orchestral additions, so I was eager to hear how MC20 SII could handle those. We both prefered the mix of the Nightwish album and I was very happy to hear that the music was free of any unwanted noise or distortion after my last adjustments. The dynamics were incredible, all the detail was in front of us with great separation of instruments and very prominent vocals. I was additionally impressed by precision in the music and clear instrumental parts - if, for example, guitar was put solo, when other instruments returned you could steal very clearly hear the guitar part, which was not the case with 2M Blue. Very happy with my transition. The only cons were: the vinyl condition now plays it's role, because the little scratches can be heard when there's no music even more prominently; the mastering and recording itself also shows when everything is balanced and when not.
Also decided to get a new cable for my Pro-Ject Esprit because after 2016 I see the company introduced a new stock cable, which might lead to some minor improvement.

 

Well, fast forward to my current state and thoughts
I decided to get a USB microscope in January, so that I could get at least something about the tips that I have or would get in the future.
So far, nothing extraordinary on my 2M Red and Blue styluses - they are indeed bonded elliptical and nude elliptical as expected, though it looks like the Blue has a smaller radius.
Out of curiosity I of course examined my Ortofon MC20 Super MKII and guess what? It looks very similar to 2M Red profile. Like a metal shank with "black" bonded ellipsoid on the tip.
I had my concerns because I started to notice IGD on some of the LPs, especially if the grooves were close to center (like I have on Slash - World on Fire, Pearl Jam - Ten remastered reissue and Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger 320 reissue). Since I had some desire to move to something with my upgrade step, I decided to contact any cartridge luthiers and so far found one that totally agreed to help me with his knowledge and work experience.
My plan was to send MC20 for a retip, the luthier suggested to go for "Ortofon Shibata". Now in my experience, based of course only on different YouTube videos and digital samples, Shibata profile tends to be of course great, but demanding for new records (I have some minor quantity in VG+ condition) and has a certain coloration in mid-high region which I think won't fit some heavier music. I heard samples from Audio-Technica carts (the whole line of 95s to be exact, same body and different tips) and also very closely checked out samples of OM40 on the net and YouTube.
Since my MC20 originally featured a Fritz Gyger tip (Type 1 to be specific), it struck me that I could look for Ortofon OM40 and asked the luthier if such option might work for his retip/replace work. He said that it's all up to me, if I want an FG70 or Shibata. So, my OM40 is expected to be at my post office tomorrow and I could also get a chance to try it out on 2M Red body that I had ordered from a guy who just had his Red stylus broken and actually wanted only the stylus, rather that a whole cart. We made a very great deal on that and now I have my spare working "new out of the box" 2M Red body.
I installed my Red+Blue on the TT today and, you know, while I was accustomed to that sound for 2 years, right after MC it sounded kinda muffled and not as dynamic or engaging so to speak. So, I can't wait to hear how MC20 will properly sound after the retip and servicing.

P.S. also, before I decided to get a working 2M Red body, I looked if something like an inexpensive MC cartridge is available on the local online market that could fit my setup. Someone not so far from me listed an Ortofon Salsa cart, and claimed it to be "bought at a local shop with original tip". Since I had my microscope ready we negotiated a deal, but, as I had in my guts, the stylus on Salsa was far from factory "Nude Super Line Contact" and looked (haha) very closely to 2M Red bonded elliptical. I got my money back of course, but warned the guy to change his description of the item. He of course was surprised by my claim that his Salsa doesn't have a factory tip, but you know, I could SEE what was wrong

P.P.S. If there is an interest, I could share the photos I taken with the USB microscope.

 

So far, so good... Tried out Stylus 40 on a 2M Red body - while it was a bit tricky to install, it was definitely worth it. The sound became very precise and clean. And there was no loss on bass or "impact" for sure. It sounded very imptessive on all 3 LPs I listed above. I always chose the last tracks on Sides A and B and what I felt after I installed 40:
a) first of all, the highs and mids gained a very "airy" quality and it felt so much more engaging and precise;
b) vocals were at times flawless and that little bit of sibilance almost totally disappeared, I even got shivers on the last Chris scream near the end of Somewhere;
c) the bass was tighter and had the same impact (if not more);
d) it really gave great dynamics to songs.
I didn't notice any increase in noise or whatever, more to that when tracks ended the silence was almost deafening, like a perfect "black" background.

Going back to 2M Blue showcased that the level of detail is worse, plus the cymbals are somewhat splashy and don't have much air at times (of course album depended, but 40 played them noticeably better on the same tracks). The dynamic is rather flat, 40 was a lot more engaging to listen to and gave out more details, nuances, clarity and precision in the sounds I heard.

Btw, looking at the nude diamond on 40 brought me additional joy. And it looked a lot like van den Hul, rather than Fritz Gyger on this famous picture:



That was no wonder to me because FG70 was previously called van den Hul II as far as I can recall.

Now, the stylus and the MC20 cart are almost ready for their way to luthier

 

The cart and the stylus successfully made its way to the luthier and he confirmed that the current stylus on my MC20 is a bonded elliptical one. Thankfully the suspension is in great condition and works flawlessly. He mentioned that the whole needle looks like "budget" one of course, as I suspected from the looks of it, but the tip doesn't have any sings of degradation yet. Anyway, I'm totally into getting close to original cart specs, so changing that bonded elliptical to the FG70 from OM40 is a no-brainer to me.

P.S. While waiting for this whole process, I got my eyes on a cheap second hand Bronze stylus (for my current 2M Red cartridge), which barely had any hours of play per seller. Of course I opted for that one since I still had some funds from "unfortunate" attempt of getting Ortofon Salsa.
So far, sounds awesome after 3 days of testing out some LPs. As I expected 8x40 Fine Line is not that advanced and evolved from 8x18 Elliptical on Blue but it does provide better separation, channel balance and lessens sibilance on some long records. Really like the sound for now. Also an interesting note, by Blue tip looks transparent and clear, as was Stylus 40, but this Bronze tip has yellow color with some black near the tip itself - I looked through some photos on Google and noticed a 2018 photo of Blue stylus that has the same yellow-blackish diamond. I suppose at some point of time Ortofon had a change in diamond supplier or whatever...

 

Maybe someone else is interested to read this thread, so I think to give it some more value I'll upload the photos I've taken with my cheap USB microscope.

Here's Red bonded elliptical 8x18


Blue nude elliptical 8x18


Stylus 40 Fritz Gyger 70 (aka FG70, van den Hul II) 5x70

 

Now for a less consistent part of my experience

Here's Bronze (notice the diamond is yellow as I've mentioned)


I was a bit worried on that one, but found this thread on German hi-fi forum where some guy uploaded his photo of the Blue stylus, which looks very similar in color to my Bronze - Nadelschliff Ortofon "Fine-Line", Analogtechnik/Plattenspieler - HIFI-FORUM
Again, I got my 2M Red as a stock cart on Esprit SB DC, so that was 2016. In January 2018 I ordered a second hand Blue stylus, which as you all seen was clear and transparent. The Bronze I got was supposedely a year old, so like 2019-2020 and the photo of the Blue on hifi-de was from 2019, which makes me think that at some point during 2018-2019 Ortofon went for artificial diamonds (based on the general thought about yellow looking crystals).

And here are some "fakes"
The supposedly "original refurbished by Ortofon in Japan" bonded elliptical, which seems to be some cheap JICO on MC20 Super MKII


And finally Ortofon Salsa with "original tip as bought at the shop"

 

What a great thread. I’m really surprised how few others have commented. I always love to see stylus pics. I think it’s far more educational to see these profiles in a pic than a drawing, or from a spec sheet. I certainly would t want to hear those last two, but the Geiger and the Bronze look lovely.

 

Thanks for the kind words Spica! Yeah, I started to get into different stylus shapes after I've created this thread, so I got some knowledge on that now. Of course bonded ellipticals are cheap but already offer something not to worry about much when playing music - as you can see they look kinda close to 2M Red. Anyway, based on my experience nude is the way to go in the first place, followed by Fine Line type at least for great playback (though again nude elliptical on Blue is definitely a great start).

 

I’ve just bought my first ever Shibata profile. I’ve had a few Geiger profiles, lots of bonded and nude ellipticals and my favourites have been microcline. Also had a Paratrace a long time ago. They do seem to make a difference.

 

Had some unfortunate (to a degree) news from the luthier. He told me that my MC20 shell was glued, so it doesn't come off easily by unmounting the screws from the cart, so he have to find a way to do his work without any additional actions that might lead to damaging the inners of the cart. Again, based on his meassurements the cart performs as it should, but the "cheap bonded elliptical" even in new condition doesn't provide a good way for the cart to perform at its full potential in my opinion.
Glad I grabbed Bronze anyway because with it on my 2M cart I still can enjoy the sound of my LPs for now, as it does provide far more details over Blue as I've mentioned.
Still hope my story with MC20S MKII will have a good ending and I will fully enjoy that MC cart with FG70 diamond.

 

I recently had a Quasar, which was a short-lived version of the MC20 or MC30 (I forget). I had one back in the day. Somehow I never got round to even trying it, but seeing the Ortofon Stylus profiles, I wish I had. They really are a cut above.

 

Oh cool. Never heard about Quasar, but I see it is a relative of HMC30/MC30 Supreme, which had FG80-Fritz Gyger II profile.

 

I do have a pic but it was before I cleaned it.




the next two are my current AT-OC9 XEB and XSH


website image generator

 

I'm sure you know, but the Red/Blue body is not designed for the Bronze/Black styli.

 

Yeah, I know Slick. But as I probably mentioned here or in another thread that covered Ortofon - I don't think the body influences the sound that much based on the reviews I watched, samples I heard and the test one guy did between the bodies, from which I actually bought the Bronze stylus. He said that to his ears and looking at the graphs and frequency charts, the difference between Red-Blue and Bronze-Black bodies are negligible to the point of them being just measurement error. Though I admit while the basic inside is the same between those bodies, the Bronze/Black has silver plated wires as the main difference that might change sound to a certain degree.

 

Well, I'll stick with what the manufacturer says on this topic.
If nothing else ya got a super Blue!

 

The MC20 is a very good cartridge but I would stay away from purposely buying one just because of the age. What's your opinion of the Salsa?

 

Yeah, the whole "vintage" path is a bit uneven and I think you have to be pretty experienced to buy something decent on that part of the market. Anyway, as you got from my thread, in my case the risk was almost justified, since the luthier confirmed that the cart works as it should (and as the seller put in his description), now the only part needed is to do a retip or change the cantilever to Stylus 40 so that the cart will be very close to its original form.
As for Salsa - as soon as I discovered that it has generic Bonded Elliptical I sent it back to the seller, so I can't comment on the sound of it See I wanted something as a spare with a good stylus while waiting for MC20 to return, so I don't want another bonded elliptical especially since I had a good Nude Elliptical in the form of 2M Blue.

 

In regard of the MC20, if you get it back without having the work done you might want to check with Ortofon. I am quite sure not that long ago they offered me one MC20 through their treasure trove emails. I am not sure they normally do reconditioning on request but they might be happy to do the job and if done by them pretty much everything will be replaced, they will charge you accordingly but it'll be almost like a new original cartridge.
I asked you about the salsa because I have one, it doesn't get much use these days but to me it is a great cartridge and a difficult to find one. I would not consider using a 2M blue instead of the salsa, I think they are in a completely different league.
All the best with the MC20, let us know what happens at the end.