OJC vs. AP SACD for the following JAZZ titles...

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by gordolindsay, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. gordolindsay

    gordolindsay Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Hi, I'm wondering what the prefered versions are for the following titles:

    Bill Evans - Moonbeams
    Bill Evans - Waltz for Deby
    Bill Evans - Sunday at the Village Vangaurd
    Cannonball Aderly - Know What I Mean?
    Chet Baker - Chet
    John Coltrane - Standard Coltrane
    Sonny Rollins - Saxaphone Collosus
    Sonny Rollins - Way Out West
    Thelonius Monk - 5 by Monk by 5
    Vince Guaraldi - Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus


    Any info would be great. I know the OJC's are pretty well recieved as are the AP SACD's, but if given the choice between the two I would like to know which way to go.
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    Bill Evans - Moonbeams SACD
    Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby OJC
    Bill Evans - Sunday at the Village Vangaurd OJC
    Cannonball Adderly - Know What I Mean? OJC
    Chet Baker - Chet OJC
    John Coltrane - Standard Coltrane SACD
    Sonny Rollins - Saxaphone Collosus OJC
    Sonny Rollins - Way Out West OJC
    Thelonius Monk - 5 by Monk by 5 SACD
    Vince Guaraldi - Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus DCC ONLY
     
    James_S888 likes this.
  3. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    Great thread.Nice to see that the OJCs are so highly regarded. Certainly makes things easier.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    They could be better but they are at least untampered with, mastering wise.
     
  5. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    and cheap :thumbsup: . I definitely wouldnt have been able to be exposed to the vastness of jazz without them .And would have never known what they were about without you guys .
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    I have to run, can you explain a little what OJCs are? Most people have no idea.

    Thanks.
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Flower Mound, TX
    From Wikipedia:

    "Original Jazz Classics (or OJC) was started in 1983 as an imprint of Fantasy Records. Under this name facsimiles of original editions of jazz LPs have been reissued on CD and formerly on LP and cassette also. The LPs were originally released on Riverside, Prestige, Contemporary and other labels that had been purchased by Fantasy. A limited edition series was begun in the late 1980s; this is now reportedly being deleted.

    A sister label is Original Blues Classics, organised on similar principles and dedicated to albums by blues performers"
     
  8. gordolindsay

    gordolindsay Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Awesome Steve, thanks a ton!!

    Time to start rounding these titles up. Most of them (the OJC's) are had easily, some I can't seem to find at the normal online stores.

    What is it about the "Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus" that one has to go for the DCC only?


    Again, Thanks for the help.
     
  9. THIS thread explains it in more detail but the short version is all the other releases used a copy tape that has been EQ'd to filter out a slight (and I mean slight) hum. Steve used the original tape and didn't filter it. The difference is huge!
     
  10. agentalbert

    agentalbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    What went wrong with the Way Out West sacd on the Analogue Productions label?
     
  11. Claude

    Claude Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    The "Way out west" and "Know what I mean" SACDs had some artificial reverb added during the mastering. I personally find this completely unnecessary, the "dry" versions sound much more realistic.
     
  12. KevinP

    KevinP Forum introvert

    Location:
    Wellington , NZ
    And here I am, patiently waiting for my Saxophone Colossus SACD to cross the Pacific when, it appears, I already have the better mastering.

    Great thread but couldn't you have started it a week earlier? :)
     
  13. shakti

    shakti Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ramnes, Norway
    Hmmmm, I love my AP SACD of Waltz for Debby. Anyone care to explain how the OJC might be better? I had the original OJC long time ago, then follishly "upgraded" to the European/ZYX 20bit digipak, but now have the AP SACD. Same for Saxophone Colossus and a couple others I forget.
     
  14. gordolindsay

    gordolindsay Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    At least now, you can determine for yourself which one YOU like better. :righton:


    I had been set for a long time on buying all of these titles in the SACD form. Then a recent thread about the "Chet" album came up saying that the SACD didn't use the true master tapes. And Steve saying that the OJC LP and CD were the way to go.

    So that got me wondering if any of the other titles had any issues that I didn't know about and which versions I should get instead.
     
  15. Claude

    Claude Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    The "Waltz for Debby" is fine IMHO.

    In addition to my previous post, I should add that the "Saxophone collossus" SACD has slight artificial reverb as well.
     
  16. bresna

    bresna Forum Resident

    Location:
    York, Maine
    I believe Steve's said he doesn't like the little reverb added. Not having the original vinyl, I have no idea how dry these were in their original released format. That might help me better understand Steve's point of view. After all, reverb was used a lot on many of Van Gelder's recordings, which comprise a large block of my Jazz collection. I must just be used to it. :)

    I happen to think all of these SACDs sound great. Far better than the OJC CD versions, particularly on some titles like "Chet" and "You Know What I Mean". Overall, I wouldn't replace one of these SACDs with the OJC CD.

    I have never been able to pick up Steve's "Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus" so I have no idea how these stack up. I imagine Steve's DCC sounds great. Someday I'll have to pick this up.

    Kevin
     
  17. bw

    bw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH, US
    Wow. The only 2 I don't have here are the Chet Baker and Vince Guaraldi (have that one on SACD). All the others sound great.

    I have to give a special nod to the Moonbeams. If you buy only one of these, make it Moonbeams. I would say its one of the best sounding jazz cd's I own. The bass on it is wonderful. The first thing you hear when you hit play is tape hiss. Very lush sound on a beautiful album. I even have an original Riverside for comparison. The SACD is very close. I think the vinyl may have a tad better bass. My copy is not mint so the SACD wins out.

    Plus Moonbeams has one of my favorite Evans songs, RE:person I Knew.
     
  18. KevinP

    KevinP Forum introvert

    Location:
    Wellington , NZ
    It's not by AP but any thoughts on The Sound of Sonny SACD vs the OJC CD?
     
  19. yasujiro

    yasujiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    tokyo
    An insightful comment as always from you, Kevin.:righton:

    I've never heard "Way Out West" on OJC. IIRC, Steve has mentioned his 45rpm version to be the very first one mastered w/o the reverb added. And he also recomended the MFSL version, which I've never heard, too. A bit confusing. Both the OJC and the MFSL were taken from the session master reels w/o reverb? :confused:
     
  20. Claude

    Claude Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    The MFSL "Way out west" CD is also free of reverb. The SACD not only sounds reverbed but also slightly veiled. When I heard the MFSL (a CD-R copy) after having had the SACD for some time, it was quite a revelation.

    The same is true for the "Know what I mean" DCC compared to the SACD.

    The "Saxophone colossus" does also have some artificial revdeerb, but to a lesser extent.
     
  21. bresna

    bresna Forum Resident

    Location:
    York, Maine
    I do not have the DCC of "You Know What I Mean". I took it off my want list after I picked up the SACD. The "you are there" feeling I get from this SACD gives me the chills.

    The clarity of the music on this SACD stands out on my system. I use as a demonstration disc to show friends how good SACDs can sound. In fact, I take this SACD with me to demo speakers in stores. The bass is nice and warm, which is difficult for some speakers to reproduce cleanly. It's a good test disc for the kind of bass response I want from my speakers.

    Kevin
     
  22. Claude

    Claude Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    Kevin, you are right, the SACD sounds great, but once you've heard the DCC you will not want to return to the SACD. That doesn't mean I'm bashing that release.

    I don't understand why the reverb was added. It adds nothing positive to the sound, but just removes the listener one notch from what could be heard in the studio. Maybe the reverb was fine for 1960's listening environment.

    Compared to that important difference in mastering, the advantage of hirez over CD resolution is almost irrelevant.
     
  23. Wouldn't the gold DCC's of these two titles be considered as the preferred version?

    Or is this preference only between the two options, AP SACD and OJC CD?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host

    The guy didn't ask me about DCC did he? No.
     
  25. Steve, no he didn't. But you recommended the DCC of Vince Guaraldi anyhow. ;)

    Is that because there is no other somewhat acceptable digital version of that album?

    By the way, have you ever heard the 1st Japanese pressing of Waltz for Debby which came out on the Victor label in 1986 with catalog number VDJ-15xx? That version was mastered by Joe Gastwirt and D. Hersch in 1986, IIRC. I really like how that one sounds.
     

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