One More Question about Adding a Graphic EQ to a Stereo Receiver

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Whidbey65, May 8, 2019.

  1. Whidbey65

    Whidbey65 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Longview, WA
    In an old discussion about
    Adding a Graphic EQ to (Stereo) Receiver with no "Tape 2" Loop...
    Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Kaskade10729, Apr 6, 2014.

    I have an old Sony STR-K840P stereo receiver that doesn't have a Tape Monitor connection, and the older model graphic EQ I am getting also doesn't have a pre-amp connection so it is impossible for me to get a loop for the EQ to be used in a global fashion. But since I only have two or three components hooked up to my Sony receiver, can I hook each one up to the EQ and then to the receiver, and use the EQ for all of the components (even though it doesn't have the capacity of having a loop for all of my components globally? This stuff is all new to me but I am willing to try it anyway once I receive the used Yamaha EQ I have ordered from eBay.com but I would like someone in the know to answer my question. Thanks for any responses I get from this question a head of time.
     
  2. nwdavis1

    nwdavis1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    If the EQ has enough inputs but I doubt that it will have 3, maybe 2.

    Are you sure the receiver doesn’t have a tape loop? The image that came up using google shows one.
     
  3. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Echo that. MD/Tape In/OUT
    But why do you want an equalizer? If you are boosting or cutting more than like 2 dB, then your system needs not an EQ but an upgrade...
     
  4. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Also, the Sony STR-K840P has treble and bass controls. If these aren't sufficient @Whidbey65, then think about replacing the Sony instead of trying to fix it with an EQ. Good luck. :)

    Edit - It would help us to help you if your profile page was filled in. :)
     
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  5. Whidbey65

    Whidbey65 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Longview, WA
    Thanks for all your help (above) in this matter. I haven't gotten the Yamaha EQ from the U.S.P.S. yet so I cannot see if it does have a Tape loop so I can use it as an equalizer even though I just got my Sony receiver delivered to me and set up a couple of days ago, and realize now that I don't really need an EQ because it does have treble and bass controls so now I will have an EQ to sell on eBay myself since it is being shipped to me and I don't have any way on eBay to stop the shipment. Sorry I wasted your time with my questions when I should have noticed before that I don't really need an EQ afterall, but this audio stuff is all new to me, and the reason why I joined this forum in the first place is to get my questions answered by you experts on stereo systems, etc. I will fill our my profile page so you all will know how to help me with my questions. Thanks!
     
  6. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    When you get the EQ you ought to have a go at using it to see if you like it.

    As hinted above, using EQ is about subtlety, not large changes.
     
  7. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    The idea of a possible realization in such a case where an amp has not “TAPE MONITOR” function is not complicated per se, and it lets listen to programs from different sources and record them, equalized or not (by-passed). But rather complicated to accomplish, for it needs an equalizer having several inputs and its own input selector, difficult to find.

    See the block diagram of such a realization below please:
    //www114.zippyshare.com/scaled/Q6PpheUj/file.html

    Copy the image from the link and save it as a graphic file for to see and use it whenever you wish to apply it.

    Or a separate input selector for several inputs will be necessary whose output terminals will be connected to any “LINE IN” terminals of an equalizer not having several inputs and its own input selector.
     
  8. Whidbey65

    Whidbey65 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Longview, WA
    I have changed my mind about using the Yamaha EQ since it also is an amplifier of which I will use it in a different room as an amp and EQ to power my small speakers there. Instead, I am going to get an Rockville REQ42-S 19 Band Graphic EQ that has 4 RCA jack outputs (enough to hook up all of my accessories except my tuner which I never use anyway) and two Record outputs to my Sony amplifier. If I do hook up all of my accessory players (CD, Tape Recorders, etc.) to these Inputs, then I would guess that I don't need to make a loop back to the EQ to get global use of the EQ for all of them; and I'd only go through 1 of my stereo outputs to the amplifier and the other would go back to my tape recorder input to record my music, right? If not right, then how would I properly hook up my EQ to my amplifier in order to get a loop so I could get the global use of the EQ? I will try to copy the back of the Rockville Band Graphic EQ so you can see it for yourself below this comment/response:

    [​IMG]

    Does that help? Thanks for your help in this matter!
     
  9. Whidbey65

    Whidbey65 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Longview, WA
    There is a control for every input as seen in the photo copy below:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

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  11. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    “Does that help?”?.. And what I posted above exactly for that matter?... No reaction?

    Well, I hope it could “help” some other participants “suffering” from the same problem of having no monitoring circuit in their integrateds…
     
  12. Vinny123

    Vinny123 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    Get this and a switchbox for your sources. Much, much better than the Rockville. Not even in the same league.
     
  13. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    I picked up a Niles AXP-1 passive switchbox on Ebay for $60 for use in my Fisher 800 c centered system based in favorable Forum comments. There are also Luxman switchboxes available from Japanese sellers on Ebay for around $110-$135 if you want a new product.
     
  14. nwdavis1

    nwdavis1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Detroit
    I don’t see why the switch box or multi input EQ is necessary. Did we not confirm that this Sony receiver has a tape loop?
     
  15. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    It’s a kind of “bass – medium - treble” large zones tone control in an amplifier, where the “medium” large zone is split into two large zones, but all the four zones are overlapping:
    Schiit Loki EQ Band Frequeny Response Measurements

    Not a graphic equalizer subject of the topic starter’s question:
     
  16. DigMyGroove

    DigMyGroove Forum Resident

    Yes I realize that, nonetheless passing on information about another EQ product the OP or others may not know about can be helpful to them, that's what this place is all about.
     
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  17. pterodactyl

    pterodactyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    I'm skeptical about graphic EQs, from my experience as an audio engineer. They tend to add noise and phase shift, which makes the sound worse than the benefits of EQ. I've tried to make them work, but it's been an exercise in frustration. They work for live sound because it's easy to grab the right frequency without too much fooling around.

    If certain sources need EQ'ing, there are better options, most of which are in the digital domain if you don't want to spend a lot. One analog box that's pretty cool and comes up relatively cheap every now and then is the Meyer Sound CP-10, a stereo parametric EQ that is designed to have super low phase shift. It sounds decent as is, but it can be updated with better op amps and sound quite good.
     
  18. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
  19. pterodactyl

    pterodactyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    That Behringer box is actually pretty good for what it is. If it works. I've had more than a couple go south. Digital EQs are interesting in terms of being able balance phase shift with ringing (both pre and post). Good filters allow you to select the tradeoffs between phase coherence and ringing. There are endless discussions about this over at Gearslutz.

    And there is this from Bob Katz who wrote an excellent book: Mastering Digital Audio, the Art and the Science (or something like that- highly recommended):

    "When you boost or cut a minimum phase equalizer band (standard equalizer, one that shifts phase), the instrument or instruments in that frequency range tend to move forward (or backward, respectively) in the soundstage at the same time you boost (or cut). The soundstage tends to “smear”. This can either be very useful, or else very distracting. The phase change is a very subtle time shift proportional to the boost or cut. Thus, minimum phase (abbreviated MP) tends to sound “more aggressive and more strongly effective”, perhaps also due to the phase distortion or other apparent distortion. Never underestimate the power of distortion to add a sense of clarity or even depth to the sound.

    However, when you boost (or cut) a linear phase equalizer, the original depth is retained, nothing moves forward or backward in the soundstage, but the frequency range itself is emphasized or reduced. Linear phase tends to sound “smoother and rounder and subtler”, perhaps also because of a reduction in transient response (which reduction does not occur to the same extent for all models of LP (linear phase) equalizers). In other words, regardless which model of equalizer you use, there is always a tradeoff. The tradeoff with the LP equalizer is also time-related, but instead of a time shift, it produces a dispersion of the signal in time, producing a subtly audible loss of transient response due to the addition of very low level echoes (not audible as echos per se). This dispersion is worse with a bell curve than with a shelf because the time dispersion is on both sides of the bell and only on one side of the shelf. The steeper the curve (higher the Q) the more the time dispersion.

    There is no right or wrong. Linear phase is more significant with already-mixed material, and less important during mixing. If you are equalizing an individual instrument in a mixing situation I don’t think the differences or advantages/disadvantages of linear phase will be that obvious or even useful, but in mastering the differences are more obvious. Some people are entirely adverse to the linear phase and others like it a lot. It’s CPU-intensive to make a good-sounding linear phase and there may only be one plugin that I find transparent enough to recommend, the Algorithmix Red."
     
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  20. Whidbey65

    Whidbey65 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Longview, WA
    I am a beginner in getting good stereo sounds out of my amp and equalizer, and since I have been retired for over 10 years now, I don't get enough pension money to be able to afford the Meyer Sound CP-10, a stereo parametric EQ quoted in the above comment or even a used version of it. The EQ I bought, the Rockville REQ42 pictured above, is a piece of junk which does nothing to add (or subtract) from the sound going to my speakers, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone to waste their time and money on it. I really do not think the Schist Loki would do anything for what I want in sound but I thank the guy who suggested it so I could have one other alternative to my stereo system. I do not have the foggiest idea what the above gentleman is speaking since I am not a fellow audio engineer but I do appreciate his recommendation of a book by Bob Katz and will look up the book on Amazon.com and see if it's right or way too technical for me to understand any of it. I was a former elementary level school teacher but am now retired so I don't understand all the technical stuff some of you posted but it may be very helpful to those who do understand and can use it wisely for their stereo system. I am sticking to simple and cheaper audio equipment, but have questions on its use, and especially for a useful and effective graphic equalizer (which I posted to enter for this thread of replies). I did buy a vintage Yamaha A-30 Natural Sounds Stereo Amplifier/Built-in Equalizer for just a little over $100, and I really enjoy the natural sounds of it. Does anyone know how I can find a User Manual for it as I have searched over the internet for one but I guess it is too old for anyone to have one I can buy?

    One other question I have for now is: Can I hook up another amplifier, namely my Sony STR-K840P stereo receiver (amp) to my new Yamaha A-30, and use the Yamaha as a small equalizer (14 total bands), or would that hookup either blow my amp(s) up or my speakers out? I have several speakers (two are small Kilpsch R-14M Bookshelf Speakers, the only ones I could afford) and others that are rated at 200 Watts or higher, but do not want to blow them out with putting too many watts through them. Some people have told me that this using two amps will work while others tell me it won't so I was wondering what some of you on this forum think about the idea? Thanks again for your expert help in these things that are new to me!
     
  21. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Excellent post!

    I am wondering if the Audacity digital EQ is Minimum phase or Linear phase?

    My guess is linear phase. I have been using Audacity to repair original recording tape dropouts, fix mistakes, adjust (singer) pitch problems, and eq adjustment for grossly "wrong" mixes, isolate and darken difference signal reverberation that was too bright. My version is 2.0.2 an older version for its better eq feature, with variable Q and fine high frequency adjustment... and it has a halfway decent frequency spectrum analyzer. The EQ feature is precise enough to compensate for locally bad singer resonances, (Yikes!) and even eliminated feedback squeal on one song. So, I can do lots of stuff that wasn't possible on an analog tape deck. There is not any advanced time analysis feature. It doesn't even have real time frequency adjustment. (You have to listen, make the adjustment, then listen again)
     
  22. Leggs91203

    Leggs91203 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    Just hook the EQ input/output to the tape input/output of the receiver and then hook the components you want EQ'ed to the equalizer. Not an optimal setup but still useful.

    One thing for the OP - "upgrade the whole system" seems to be a lot of peoples' answers to everything.
    It is true that EQ's are not needed but they can enhance sound the way you like. Your Sony is just fine. Even if you bought a "Better" one, it is not going to sound any different.
    Well, THAT statement shouldn't start the dump hitting the fan
     
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  23. Leggs91203

    Leggs91203 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indiana
    It certainly dos but it does NOT have a "tape 2" loop, which is what an EQ connects to.
    That is why when a receiver has tape 2, it is also called "monitor".
     
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  24. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    Let's start at the beginning. Why do you want an EQ. Are you unhappy with the sound you get from your current set up? I'm not anti EQ - I use one myself - but let's see if we can get your system working better without one for the time being. A lot depends on your listening circumstances.

    The first thing to do with the gear you've got is to try and get the best from it. This involves careful placement of the speakers and your listening chair. This depends how much freedom you have to move the gear around the room. I use this method:

    Setting up your monitoring environment

    Why not try it even if you can't leave things permanently in position (you could store the speakers and chair when not in use). Positioning can make a lot of difference, particularly to bass. You could test this by playing some bassy material and walking round the room to hear how the sound changes.

    If you can't use 'The Thirds' as described in the link perhaps you could try 'The Fifths'.

    Once you've done this, or you can't do it, we need to assess your set ups short comings. What are they? Bass, treble, something else?

    No! You should hook it up as an amp because that is what it is. Looking at pictures of its rear it seems to use bare wires for the speaker cables.

    You could contact Yamaha to see if they can get you a manual. This may be useful:

    Any info on Yamaha A-30D?
     
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  25. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    I think the basic objection to equalizers is the feeling people use ignorantly them to make exaggeration.

    Like way back in the day, when I always had the loudness button ON with my parents setup. It was louder! Stronger! More exciting! It took me a long time to learn that it did not sound BETTER. Or the time I handmade a friend some 12" woofers, stuffed them in his rear package tray, flattened out via crossover adjustment. A few weeks later, it had degenerated into a boom machine via EQ, because he said it sounded too light. I reset things but with a rising response for road noise and told him not to touch it for a few weeks to his ears could get used to him. He did later agree the huge bass was not really good.

    I agree chasing the receiver won't transform things-hey OP what speakers do you have? Set up how? What's the room like? Pictures?

    I guess what I'm saying is that if gross EQ (more than a couple decibels) is being applied to make the system sound good, something is wrong, probably the speakers and/or room/placement. And there are wrongs (for instance crossover phase problems) that EQs can't solve, like the story an ex-Grateful Dead guy (Jamie something????) told at an Audio Engineering Society meeting. They were the first to take 1/3 octave EQs out on the road, flattened every bump smooth...and it sounded like crap. Because the EQ affected both the direct and the substantially different reflected sound. (A few EQ systems like Audyssey and Dirac appear to be time based and theoretically can be better for that, but those are different beasts).
    Now to tweak the sound of recordings to match your taste there was the Cello Audio Palette-long gone now though.
     
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