Patrick Stewart to Reprise 'Star Trek' Role in New 'Star Trek Picard' Series*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by dirwuf, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. boyjohn

    boyjohn Senior Member

    I thought the first few episodes of season 2 were the best of the series. After that, well there were some issues.
     
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  2. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery picture member

    Season One started off sort-of OK, but for me, went off the rails really quickly.

    Season Two I thought was pretty good. I'm generally fond of altered realities and time travel, so this one seemed OK to me.

    Season Three was mostly pretty good, though I wasn't fond of the idea of Picard suddenly wanting to be a father, and the Jack Crusher character didn't really interest me.
     
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  3. MikaelaArsenault

    MikaelaArsenault Forum Resident

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    New Hampshire
  4. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think that first and foremost the first two seasons were just bad TV. Poor writing, poor showrunning. The new characters are poorly sketched out, their motivations often make no sense.

    I've watched a number of interviews with the showrunners and others involved with the show. Rest assured, I am not some sort of OG nitpicking fan that can't handle when the thing I loved 87 years ago is now not that same thing. I think there are a myriad of great ways TNG could have been modernized both in terms of style/aesthetics and in terms of being relevant to modern issues.

    Everybody involved in the show *chose* to take an *existing* timeline/narrative/group of characters and continue with them. They had ample opportunity to make a *new* show and do all of the "modernizing" they wanted. Indeed, they have and are still doing that. It's called "Star Trek: Discovery." Granted, that show is also supposed to be part of the same "timeline", but at least it has more leeway with previously non-canonical characters to do whatever they want with those characterizations. Well, actually they also ended up bringing in previously-established characters as well, but I guess that's another discussion for another time (cue Spock with hipster beard).

    To be blunt, concerning most of the folks involved with "Discovery" and the first two seasons of "Picard", I don't believe them when they say they know TNG and other old Trek. Or rather, if they "know" it well, they're ignoring it. The way these characters act, the way Starfleet is portrayed, it all is *so* far afield from what has been established in the past, that it requires people making it to either not know old Trek well, or to ignore it, or I guess just have vastly underdeveloped creative instincts as to what looks like matching tone and character versus not.

    In the first episode of "Picard", the Dahj character says "Dude." As in "Dude, you don't even know...." It as that early on in the show's run that I knew the writers on this show either don't know TNG or don't care, and/or don't know how to match style or tone at all.

    I'm actually not willing to say they're *that* poor at what they do. I think they absolutely knew and understood that they were vastly changing tone and character. Now, to be clear, I also don't believe for a second that those people have watched even half of the library of TNG (let alone original series or other series) episodes.

    As for the RedLetterMedia guys, yes, they can be smarta**es and smug. But they also know Star Trek (and especially TNG) very well, and are also *not* apt to hate things just because they've been changed or modernized. In my opinion, they pinpointed several *tell-tale* signs of exactly how this show came about. I think the showrunners had a few *very broad* general ideas about what TNG was, and it was mostly "Picard and Data were popular." The weird, *completely out of character" fixation, bordering on creepy obsession, that Picard has for Data in Season One is very, very strong evidence of this.

    I think lazy writers for this show have used dumbed-down, simplified trauma as "character." Every character has a deep, dark trauma that controls *every* aspect of their life.

    Also, the people making this show are fixated with the modern penchant for nearly every character to simply be a HUGE total a-hole. They're all mean, they all yell, they all condescend. None of these people should like any of the other people.

    Also, the plot twist at the end of Season 1 and what they do with Picard is, even in a vacuum ignoring *anything* else, a supremely dumb, hackneyed, lazy twist. The only thing lazier was the fact the show *immediately* upon Season 2 (and even more so Season 3) goes as far as they can to ignore the twist.

    Bringing in Q was weird and desperate, but de Lancie's performance in Season 2 is the *only* compelling performance with any actual pathos. And yes, I'm including Patrick Stewart (who, from what I've read, *absolutely* was a big part of why the first two seasons were so off; his influence was a big part of that).

    Season 3 was not great in my opinion. It kind of band-aided previous issues by largely ignoring them, and then slathering on nostalgia. I still feel the characters were off, just not nearly as much as previous seasons. I think the Jack Crusher stuff was still kind of campy and lazy.

    As many have said, Season 3 was like a somewhat better version of the TNG movies (which were not that great, certainly not up to the standard of the best TV episodes).
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  5. boyjohn

    boyjohn Senior Member

    You make some good points, however it would be impossible to make a show that had the same values and tone of a show that was made in the 1980s. I think the problem was that they tried to cater too much to the audience that was looking for a recreation of the original show and didn't try hard enough to make something new. And by not having it one way or the other created something that had a problem making anyone happy.

    With the really excellent Strange New Worlds, Prodigy and Lower Decks it seems they are learning how to make modern Trek without losing all the original audience.
     
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  6. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think it was indeed impossible for "Picard" to have the exact same style and look as the original show. Modern television simply cannot look and feel exactly like late 80s syndicated television. I get that. But I think they could have done far, far better at matching the tone of the old show as far as simple things like Starfleet, how officers interact with each other, and how the original cast are characterized, and how their relationships are portrayed.

    If you dumped me into the middle of the first season and showed me how people interact with Picard (and with each other), I suppose I would have bought it if you explained to me that the set up for the show is that the universe is the middle of a Mad Max-style post-apocalypse, and also that Picard was found to have secretly been some sort of massive deviant sociopath criminal through his entire career and just hid it before being exposed in subsequent years.

    But no, Starfleet is still chugging along. Yes, some controversial, violent events have occurred. But everything is still intact, and there is no reason for everyone (and not just a few politically-motivated Starfleet higher-ups) to be not just disrespectful of Picard, but downright violently angry is some cases. His position on the Romulan relocation was clearly controversial, but a man of his stature and service would not be roundly hated the way he is on this show. Again, that Raffi character joking that Picard is nothing but "ego and hubris" shows a 100% misunderstanding/retcon of his character. And I think Patrick Stewart liked that, because he didn't really want to make a Star Trek show.

    And again, Picard's weird creepy, uncomfortable, maudlin obsession with Data is really bizarre.

    I don't think the showrunners on this show (nor Stewart) were trying to cater to the audience of the original show *at all*, to the point where they endlessly contradicted fundamental aspects of the show (both literal pedantic nerd factoids, as well as the most simple and broad characterizations of the old cast members). I think this show was meant for new, young fans, similar to those who watch "Discovery", who, like I believe many of the people working on "Picard", also only have a passing interest/familiarity with the original TNG series. Again, "normies" know Picard and Data were popular characters. So they just rode that as far as they could.

    The third season of "Picard" was an interesting case study in trying as hard as they could to put the genie back in the bottle. But it was too late, and the third season was not *that* great in my opinion either. Some characterizations still seemed off, and it follows in the long line of shows and movies that replace actual characterization and emotion with characters just yelling at each other and being insufferable a-holes to each other. Again, that also wasn't as bad as the first two seasons, but it was still there.

    I also don't have a lot of faith that a spinoff show with Raffi and Seven, which is what fans appear to be lobbying for, is going to hew any closer to the correct tone. I suspect, if they let Matalas run the show, it will end up being not as good as the third season of "Picard", but better than the first two.

    I'm not particular into the other Trek shows. "Lower Decks" seems like kind of a non-R-rated version of what that "Harley Quinn" show is to DC, where it's halfway towards an in-house "Spaceballs" treatment of Trek. I think Prodigy is inconsequential but isn't hurting anybody. I haven't done much on "Strange New Worlds" so far, so I can't comment much. But it certainly seems to hew much more towards "Discovery" than the original 60s series. A lot of that is to be expected for obvious reasons, but it kind of just begs the question of why they won't just make more shows in far-off timeframes from the old shows so that it seems less jarring to see people act and look completely at odds with fundamental aspects of the Star Trek universe that has been established thus far.
     
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  7. Curveboy

    Curveboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
    @balzac

    While I don't agree with a lot of your assessments, I commend you for being well thought out and spoken about the show. If I had a chance I'd give you a more comprehensive and detailed reason for why I don't agree with you, but don't have the time these days.

    But I'll say this; Picard takes place in a post-Borg, post-Dominion War world where I surmise Section 31 runs the show behind a Starfleet curtain.
     
  8. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think that is indeed part of what the show was/is angling at. And if that was the case, it doesn't do a good job of offering enough exposition on that front. I freely admit that I haven't seen the entire runs of "Deep Space Nine" or "Voyager"; my familiarity with post-TNG Star Trek is spottier. I did *most* of the run of "Voyager" though, and when that ended, things still felt much, much closer to "TNG" Trek than what we get in the "Picard" show. For that matter, the four TNG films, including "Nemesis" which I would assume is the latest in the timeline pre-Picard, still also feels closer to the TNG show than "Picard."

    I don't mind things being a bit edgier, grittier, etc. Certainly "Deep Space Nine" went in that direction to some degree. But so many aspects of "Picard" have fundamental mis-matches with TNG that shouldn't be present, even in grittier times. The *way* people talk is completely different. I agree some modernization has to occur, and I'm not even most fixated on the infamous f-bombs and stuff like that. The writers on the show have made no attempt to not make these people sound like they talk like people do in present day. They use turns of phrase that would be total anachronisms. Granted, even the original shows did this a bit (remember someone calling Data "a toaster"?). But Dahj saying "Dude", and Troi literally using the word "hipster" shows a weird fundamental change in how they're writing this stuff. The long and short of it is that I don't think they're trying to make "Science Fiction" as such anymore. It's adventure, and drama.

    Also, and the Red Letter reviews go into this to some degree, I haven't even touched much on the hackneyed, unsubtle, embarrassing way the show tries to inject moral quandaries and issues into the show. To be clear, I don't disagree much with the sentiment they're getting at. The ills of society as shown in Season 2 of "Picard" are absolutely ills, and what they're portraying that we should be upset about are absolutely things that I'm upset about. I'm not opposed to "Star Trek" alluding to those issues. But there's zero subtlety to it on any front. Stuff like the ICE stuff is just barfed out and then left out there hanging. One of the hallmarks of old Trek was teaching some moral and ethical lessons embedded in good and fun television. I think the "Picard" showrunners thought they were doing this. But it was done poorly, and embarrassingly. Season 2 has some truly jawdropping embarrassing moments.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
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  9. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    San Francisco
    Mileage. I thought Starfleet behaved like it always had toward Picard. He had his boosters in the admiralty, like Admiral Quinn from "Coming Of Age" (and "Conspiracy", although he...wasn't quite himself there!), or Admiral Hansen from "The Best Of Both Worlds", who was an old friend. but most of the Admirals seemed to regard him as an eccentric or a pain in the azz. Janeway liked and respected him, but she was an eccentric and a pain in the azz as well. The rest? His relationship with Admiral Nechayev was frosty at best, and often contentious. The Admiral from "The Pegasus" clearly had no time for him or Captain Picard Day.

    I thought Admiral Clancy's reaction to Picard was both hilarious and on-brand for Starfleet. But unlike most of the more-hostile Admirals we'd seen up against Picard, she also seemed to have a lot more personality and be less of a stick in the mud.

    I didn't have a problem with that. The last we saw of Data he was sacrificing himself to save Picard and the Enterprise, and they'd obviously grown closer in the movies (First Contact in particular and their shared experience with the Borg, but also in Nemesis itself). After the whole synth ban, the collapse of the Romulan rescue and Picard's departure from Starfleet, I could see Picard in his retirement pacing over that same patch of carpet repeatedly. Data was certainly the most unique lifeform he'd ever worked closely with.
     
  10. MikeInFla

    MikeInFla Glad to be out of Florida

    Location:
    Kalamazoo, MI
    For what it’s worth I enjoyed all 3 seasons. Not disappointed in any of it! Loved it all!
     
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  11. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    Yeah, it's definitely a mileage situation. I think a lot of complaints about that Admiral Clancy were assumed to be a specific issue with the swearing. It wasn't that so much as it was the ridiculous rage. Being angry at Picard made sense, but that brings us to the other issue in those episodes, which is that Picard is kind of portrayed as far too clueless and incredulous. Stewart plays him as if he has NO idea that Starfleet would have a problem with his request, which makes him far dumber than Picard was ever presented on the shows or in the movies.

    And in general, yes, Admirals on TNG were often if not usually portrayed as cantankerous, stuffy, and seemingly annoyed with the job of even being an Admiral. But to me, that Clancy reaction was far past on-brand for Starfleet (although, later episodes also portray Starfleet as far more inept than they should have been either), and was pure meme material. I love the "Sheer F***ing Hubris" memes and t-shirts and all of that, but that's because it represents the ridiculously off-model, over-the-top writing for that show.

    As for Picard/Data, I think a somber remembrance of Data, and some sorrow, totally makes sense. But that's not how it's presented in the first season of "Picard." Picard is seemingly singularly focused on Data. He's having dreams/visions about him, he talks about Data in a comically fawning fashion. The show, and even the end of "Nemesis", seems like an appropriate in terms of Data's death.

    There are many, many examples of Picard's attitude towards Data from the TNG show, and it just doesn't match up to what we see in "Picard."

    And the Data stuff in "Picard" ends up looping in all sorts of other story elements regarding Picard that are even more goofy and nonsensical. All culminating in the end of Season 1 and perhaps arguably the dumbest plot twist in the history of all Star Trek shows/movies.
     
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  12. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    San Francisco
    He's like 90. Have you dealt with old people? They're often astoundingly clueless about what the contemporary world is like. Picard has been squatting in his chateau for over a decade stewing. I am totally not surprised that he'd make the request to Admiral Clancy and not expect any pushback.

    I thought it was the perfect reaction to his having just been on the media trashing Starfleet. Clancy had one nerve and this jackazz was getting on it.

    Again, we're decades removed from TNG, even the TNG movies and Data's death. As Joni Mitchell once told us, you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. Given everything that happened with the synths, the Romulan evacuation and the attack on Mars, I'm not at all surprised that Picard was obsessing over Data. Essentially synths had gone extinct and Data wasn't just a dead friend and something of a son to Picard, or at least a mentee, and there wasn't even going to be any sort of successor because of events Picard himself was deeply involved with. Data was like the last dodo, and Picard had a hand in both his death and the extinction of his kind.

    I could totally see how that would weigh on a guy who was an amateur archeologist and a history buff.

    We're, what, three decades on from that show in the Picard timeline? His attitude toward his crew was already seen loosening up in the final episode of TNG, "All Good Things". No reason to assume that wouldn't have become an even warmer relationship over the next three decades, especially after they'd all moved on from a direct command relationship. Indeed, that inability to move on with Data - because he was dead - might have been part of what triggered some of Picard's regrets and reflections on Data and their relationship.

    I didn't have any trouble with it. Picard was older, profoundly disappointed with Starfleet and feeling betrayed, and reflecting back on his former crew, who'd apparently remained pretty loyal to him. Data being arguably the most loyal of all, and the most-influenced by Picard, and the one he'd lost. Another piece of his legacy that he'd felt robbed of.
     
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  13. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    San Francisco
    That ending - with Picard implanted in a synthetic golem body - was utter nonsense, and something that never really paid off in the subsequent seasons. In fact, they largely just ignored it, which made it feel even more ridiculous. Had it amounted to something - which it certainly could have - they could have turned that from a head scratcher into a genius move.

    There were a lot of problems with the writing in S1 of Picard, I just don't think they get as much attention as the commonly-listed grievances, most of which address "discrepancies" which actually aren't. Overall I think they got more right than wrong, but with a few tweaks S1 could have gone from OK but frustrating to pretty spectacular.

    They should have just cured Picard's brain problem with the positronic tech that had previously been illegal to use. And saved the golem body, which could have then turned up in S3 of Picard.
     
  14. All fair criticism, and many that can easily be applied to all Star Trek series of the past. Expectations need to be kept in check when dealing with Trek. I enjoyed all 3 seasons, but enjoyed the 3rd the most.
     
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  15. All reasonable points but then we wouldn’t have had the plot point in season three involving the Borg or, st least, it would have been altered quite a bit. I thought the ending of season one-despite the fact that I like season one-a bit mystifying but Picard becoming like Data to an extend had some poetic Justice to it. Despite the fact that I enjoy John De Alan ie, the second season was a mess. The third-despite some flaws-was exceptionally well done. It managed to balance out fan service with doing a season that also went beyond the first season. I’ve watched the first and third seasons a. Umber of times but the second season is just plain awful IMHO.
     
  16. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    You still could have had the whole Borg thing go down in S3 with only minor alterations. Would have changed pretty much nothing.

    Mmmmm, I wouldn't call it exceptionably well done. I think it had a slew of problems. In no particular order:

    * Pacing. They spent at least an episode too many in the nebula beast, and drug out the Jack Borg reveal several episodes too long. Or maybe they just previewed it too soon.

    * Killing off the main villain. Introducing her replacement at the 11th hour. Vadic really should have run thru the entire season, been (or got, as the season progressed) slightly less-crazy, and maybe even flipped right at the very end.

    * Way too many chatty member berries moments, again caused by the bad pacing and lack of setup, like when the crew reassembled aboard the D while the battle was already raging and took time to comment on the carpet. They should have already seen and been aboard the D and it should have already been prepped and ready to go with some crew onboard.

    * Speaking of which, they did a crap job using things they'd already established. For example, they had the Titan running around making random attack runs and then decloaking. They should taken that cloak and gotten it back onboard the D. They could have used prefix codes and the Enterprise's transporters to purge ships of Borg-infected personnel, all while under cloak. The D probably has more transporters than any other ship in the fleet - they could do dozens of crew if not a hundred at once. Heck, they probably weren't even modified since they were sitting at the Fleet Museum and would have still had the original code.

    * The improbable Borg / rogue Changeling alliance. Didn't make a lick of sense. Would have been far more interesting to have Vadic trying to utilize Borg technology stolen from Section 31 to form her own Collective. They even had a Borg vinculum in Picard. Would have played out pretty much like S3 did, with a bunch of humans being hijacked into the Collective, but one run by Vadic.

    * And this would have led to a much-more satisfying and unexpected series conclusion - the formation of this new Collective draws in a surviving Borg Queen, who takes control. Now Vadic has to join with Picard & company to fight off this new threat - one that could bring the Borg back from the brink of death and assimilate the entire Alpha Quadrant.

    I find S3 really frustrating, because they got so close, gave the OG cast tons of great stuff to do, and introduced a slew of great secondary characters like Shaw, Vadic and Geordi's daughters (who I haven't seen get much love - I thought they were both fantastic), and yet bungled some pretty fundamental plot stuff.
     
  17. Given that stealing Picard’s biological body was part of their goal and that we had the set up of the neurological changes, I don’t think it would have worked quite as well if we eliminated that. Could they have written around that or done without it? Sure. Then someone would criticize them for not delivering on that.
    I thought the pacing was fine even if it was a couple of episodes too long.

    Taking the cloak? As I recall, the Titan’s cloak was already damaged by the time they decided to depart and couldn’t be used. As I recall, they came to the conclusion to use the Enterprise after all,of that had occurred. Integrating the cloaking devise into the Enterprise? Another Gordi miracle that might stretch credibility and a trope.

    I think that having the Enterprise remove the modifications would have been one miracle too many but that’s me. Gordi saving the day happened too often on the show.

    The Jack reveal along with his links to you know who should have been revealed much earlier IMHO. I think a lot of folks like myself guessed it way before it was revealed. It could have been revealed and handled well with them trying to locate the Borg and figure out the master plan.
    I thought it was rather clever to kill off Vadic as soon as they did and it was rather shocking. I think,it would have been a bit cliched for Vadic to suddenly become a part of their alliance.
    Agreed about the fan service on the Enterprise. As I pointed out to my wife ‘don’t they have somewhere urgent to be?”

    I thought that the Borg-Changling alliance did make sense-the enemy of my enemy approach and who knows whst they were promised? Did we find out what the Borg offered them to for that alliance? Nope but they could have clarified that point. As to your other points, that would have been a different program with Vadic and eliminating her cleared the path to the main baddies the Borg.

    Some minor quibbles aside, I thought that they did a fine job.

    different strokes.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2023
  18. Playloud

    Playloud Nobody’s Hero

    Location:
    PNW
    I really enjoyed S3 for what it was. I think all the quibbles are fair points. The lack of urgency moment mentioned above is kind of funny. Not a big deal for Picard, but it is absolutely a deal breaker for me on Discovery. They are always having a heartfelt moment in the middle of a crisis. Drives me nuts.

    I sort of felt like the Jack Crusher story arc was a little cliche. Some of it worked some not. He also was a pretty clean looking Borg unlike the drones of First Contact. It would have interested me more if his role concerning the Borg would have lasted longer and his reign of terror been emphasized.

    All and all still glad they went this route for S3 and I would totally watch a series with Seven as captain of the Enterprise.
     
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  19. It would have been interesting to reveal Jack’s role mid season and then allow that to play out.

    ‘Agreed about the fan service; it dropped the drama dead in its tracks.
     
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  20. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Would have been easy to write around that - Section 31 discovered what had happened to Picard. All that needed to be "stolen" was a file on Picard's DNA changes.

    Nope. Cloak was working fine. 7 used it to stage hit and run attacks on the fleet after the rest of the crew had fled to the Museum.

    They'd already integrated it into the Titan... Doing it to the Enterprise, a ship Geordi had served on for like a decade? Child's play.

    Not a miracle at all. The modifications were put into place by transporters that had been tampered with. They could be undone simply by running someone thru a transporter that hadn't been tampered with. The Big D was the perfect candidate for this, since they already had it, it had been stuck in a museum for years and it had a slew of transporter bays.

    The more I think about this, the better it gets dramatically. Things would have seemed hopeless with the Fleet Formation attack on Spacedock. Then the (cloaked) Ent D would have shown up and started lowering the shields of the attacking ships using their prefix codes and deBorgafying their younger crewmen. The ships would have warped away after their crews regained control, to avoid being destroyed, but the compromised fleet would be getting depleted.

    The compromised ships would finally break off their attack on Spacedock to hunt down the cloaked Enterprise. Laris (remember her?) would show up with a Romulan fleet, buying the Enterprise more time. It would look as though our heroes were about to succeed, when the Borg themselves show up to take control of this new collective.

    Cue everybody losing their ****.

    The final episode would be similar to what we got - the mega-Cube would beam Jack over and the final sequence would take place there - but you'd still have a (pissed off, terrified) Vadic around with the Shrike (now under attack from the Collective), Romulans, a fleet of compromised Federation ships and a few liberated ships fighting back. It would buy legitimate time for some of the drama that unfolded in the final hour, and also keep around arguably their best new character (Vadic), now fighting the Borg.

    Except this plot would make a lot more sense, and not have things like people talking about the carpet while Spacedock was getting blasted...

    You'd have also had two ships in play from the time of their Museum visit to the end, which would have been really handy during the sequence where they laid a trap for Vadic. I'd have had the cloak go to the Enterprise prior to that episode - it would explain how Raffi and Worf got onto the Shrike to rescue Riker, the cloaked Enterprise transported them there. And we could have gotten all of the Enterprise D member berries out of the way in the Museum episode.`

    Also, I never cared for what a wuss Geordi was portrayed as in that episode. Would have made far more sense if he was testing Picard because he'd already been warned something insidious was going on within the Federation...by Ro Laren, who was friends with Geordi and who would have trusted him, since he was at the Museum and not someone a conspiracy would be likely to compromise, but who was someone with connections and resources (those ships, old and not connected to the fleet - remember, she suspected the transporters).

    Finally, this reconstructed Enterprise should have been something of a crazy hotrod - a fact we wouldn't be privy to at first. After she was recovered from Veredian III, Starfleet would have used her during the Dominion War to test out new technology and play around with potential refits to the Galaxy Class. Geordi would have scavenged parts from the post-Dominion War fleet to finish putting her back together. So the warp core would be an uprated model from whatever class the Ent F was, the shield generator would have come from a starbase, there'd be ablative armor on some of the hull, and he couldn't source photon torpedoes, but he managed to get a run of defective quantum torpedoes with unstable yields onboard. She'd be held together by duct tape and bailing wire, but anybody who got into a fight with this thing was in for many nasty surprises...
     
  21. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    Yeah, it didn't really work in the end. Although it seemed like they'd copied his look from the TNG Borg drones - they'd gotten grubbier looking for the movies and for Voyager. That was an (odd) retro touch.

    Yeah, it felt like that needed to pay off sooner or he needed to be around longer. Another reason why the battle for the Spacedock should have been a real battle that could have gone on for some time with additional players - liberated Starfleet ships, the Romulans and Klingons, etc. Give the drama a little space to play out.
     
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  22. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    And the frustrating thing is, it didn't need to. Want fan service? Make room in your plot for it. They had a lot of time to work with.

    Some of the things that could have been pure fan service - like the return of Ro Laren - wound up being the strongest character and strongest plot points of the season. They nailed that one. It's just a pity they couldn't consistently write at that level.
     
  23. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    Does anyone else think it's funny Worf ended up reporting to Ro Laren? How did that transpire?
     
  24. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Carnival of Light enjoyer... IF I HAD ONE

    The Enterprise already used an experimental cloak in The Pegasus, so integrating a century-old Klingon cloaking device would not have stretched credibility for me.
     
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  25. balzac

    balzac Senior Member

    I think these are fair points as to a typical 90-plus-year-old. I would say, first and foremost, it was odd and out of character that he was "squatting in his cheateau" in the first place. That he ended up there and was seemingly leading a rather flaccid life is perhaps a whole other ball of wax to get into. I think one thing that happened is that the showrunners remembered the "All Good Things" finale and for some reason felt that "future" version of Picard was actually what the template should be for the "Picard" show, down to his syndrome finally setting in.

    I would say that 94 years old is presented in the Star Trek universe as far more spry that what *we* see in 94-year-olds today. How old was Bones supposed to be when he was on TNG in the first season? 130-something?

    Picard's mind (ironically enough considering the show also wants to bring in his dementia-like syndrome alluded to on TNG) and cognitive abilities seem to be fully intact when we meet him in "Picard." He is *presented* as kind of out of touch, but I think this was simply an odd character decision rooted in nothing more than the plot-based need for him to be extra clueless. He seems to still be a smart, thoughtful person, and to the degree we can use *anything* prior to "Picard" as indicative of his character (even accounting for how much people can change), this all seems *too* far off in my opinion. It's *clearly* in my opinion not an organic, sensible direction to take his character. Rather, it's a technically *plausible* direction that suits the needs of the writers, whose other designs are even more demonstrably out of character/tone as to this era of the Trek timeline.

    Again, I think her reaction is believable as it pertains to how someone today might react. I suppose the issue for me here is that the whole sequence of events is out of step with TNG, so the conclusion of this series of events (Picard wants to rescue Romulans, Starfleet seemingly begrudgingly agrees to help, then a seemingly unrelated event causes Starfleet to back out, Picard defies them, gets shut down, stews on it, then the TNG equivalent of "Hard Copy" goes to visit Picard, and he's conveniently now a hot-head who both can't control his emotions and doesn't seem to know what the news media even is, he trashes Starfleet more, and then wants a favor from said Starfleet) is logical in light of those previous events. But all of those previous events are so comically uncharacteristic of everything we know about Picard and Starfleet and simple logic as it pertains to politics, the whole thing seems odd.

    This is also as good a place as any to point out how the show seems to put no effort into explaining why Starfleet used the Android (err, "Synth") attack to justify pulling out of the seemingly unrelated Romulan rescue mission. Yes, this is actually a believable series of events in light of our modern day politics, where a government or military or organization will use one "event" to justify changing course on another seemingly unrelated issue. But the show puts no effort into explaining any of this. Nor does it explain *any* of the logistics of that Romulan rescue mission. Why can't Romulans use their *own* massive fleet to transport their people? Is anybody else helping with this mission at any juncture? What kind of Starfleet resources are available out the outset of the rescue mission? In light of things like "A Measure of a Man", why are Starfleet enslaving Androids now? Why isn't Picard portrayed as having been hugely upset by *any* use of Androids/Synths for labor? None of these questions are adequately answered.

    I think Picard's attitude towards Data as seen at the end of "Nemesis" was pretty appropriate. That it goes to the lengths of what we see in "Picard" still strikes me as odd and uncomfortable. Again, I think this is a means to an end for *other* writing decisions they had made in "Picard", in particular the "Data's daughters" plot elements and the eventual decision of what they do with Picard at the end of the season. In light of *all of that*, his sappy, maudlin attitude towards Data makes sense.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2023

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