POLL: Do You or Would You Use a Subwoofer? (in an audiophile system)

Just curious as to where ppl are generally at on this, as I'm putting together a system sometime around year-end.

And yes, we're talking more an audiophile-oriented system as opposed to something more heavily AV-ish, though both uses are equally valid, sure.

 

Yeah, subwoofers are great. I need to replace one that died early in the pandemic so I've been listening without one for the first time in many years, and it's OK, but something's definitely missing -- not just low bass, but air and space. Flat response across all frequencies is something that few speakers other than the biggest full frequency ones are going to give you without a subwoofer. In addition with a sub you have the option of being able to power it differently, use a crossover to take low bass frequencies away from your main power amp, situated the sub in a more optimal way for minimizing bass speaker-boundary interference response problems (vs. positioning your mains where imaging and symmetry are also considerations). I was amazed when I first put a sub into my system how much more dynamic and airy it became, how much more realistic transients were, even though my main speakers are fine through say the low E on a bass which is around 42 Hz.

Sure, you need to integrate the sub and the mains and the sub and the room, and that is going to take frequency sweep measurements (because you'll never get it right with program material and doing it by ear), or things might not sound great, but that's true of your main speakers as well. Can you get by without a subwoofer? Sure, I'm getting by pretty well for the moment, and there are some folks using full range speakers and very powerful amps. But if sometone is using stand mounted monitor type speakers and low powered amps without a sub, the really don't know what they're missing out on. I've never run a two sub set up myself, but in terms of balance bass sound pressure in the room, I understand that can be even more advantageous. I vote awesome, even though there are certainly better and worse sounding subs, and definitely poorly positioned and tuned subs (hint: it shouldn't be turned up so loud so that you noice it with music, until it's gone).

 

I use a sub in my main system with the Maggie .7's. Took a bit of playing around with settings but it's well worth it in the end.
I have a sub in the HT but don't have it on when listening to 2 channel as the Pinnacle speakers provide more than enough low end for that room.

 

Subwoofers solve problems most notably the frequency range issue. But they can also cause more problems if not integrated properly.

 

What do you consider an "audiophile system"?

 

One primarily dedicated to music, as opposed to film/AV, where sheer 'scale', slam, and ability to play very loud might possibly be prioritized over pure sound quality.
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Can anyone speak to integration issues they've experienced and/or worked out?

For example, your 'mains' (main speakers) have very good transient response/are 'fast'... can the sub(s) keep up?

Or possibly the mains have a different 'character' than the sub(s), and you notice the dichotomy, even though the sub(s) only handle the bottom two (maybe three) octaves or so. That happen to anyone here?
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In my room, I need either stereo subs or center placement, neither of which are possible. Corner placement threw everything off and my sub was the same brand as my speakers at the time.

 

This was the concern with my Omega Super 3i's and is why I ended up purchasing one of Omega's subs instead of say, REL or Velodyne, for example. The Omega sub is everything I hoped for (tuneful, fast, and easy to integrate). A perfect match.

 

Almost mandatory to get balanced output in the 20-40 hz. range.

 

i have had two system integration issues that were never worked out and i eventually moved on to a near perfect system.
the first issue eventually boiled down to too much pollution of the midrange by a sub that had too much cabinet resonance and too shallow of crossover slope.
the second issue was caused by main speakers that had too much low end energy and a good integration was not possible without main speaker crossover filtering, something i refuse to do. however in hind sight better subs might have worked.
currently running a truly audiophile subs and mains integrated system.
the design of the subwoofers is the main reason for success. they have enclosures that are inert and heavy, no stepping on the midrange. they also use a passive radiator which i believe helps avoid phase relationship issues.
they still need some skillful tlc to position and adjust properly but it did go quickly.
not all subwoofers are as capable, choose wisely.

 

Never

 

Can we get some more detail on that?
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Closest sound to live music.

A must for an A/V system too.

 

I used a pair of Subwoofers in the past, integration was perfect.
Now i changed speakers, with 12inch woofers you don’t need a sub

 

The issues I had related to doing it by ear with program material. If you're doing it by ear, I find, for me at least, I have a tendency to turn things up so I can really hear the sub, particularly problematic based on the playback volume I'd be tuning at, since we humans have non-linear hearing response in the bass with respect to volume. Also program material -- music -- is kind of a lousy way to set up a sub because the differing recordings and outputs of bass content vary so widely from program to program. When I moved over to free real-time analysis software, a calibrated measuring mic, and frequency sweeps not music, I found it much easier to set levels and physical positions for the sub that worked transparently across all kinds of different program material. I was using an old servo controlled, sealed Velodyne and also sealed acoustic suspension mains so I encountered no issue of differences of sonic character. Looking now to replace that sub with a new, sealed, servo sub. I definitely prefer using a high pass filter crossover vs. running speakers full range and trying to integrate the sub in the room, which may work depending on the nature of the mains mechanical roll off.

 

Of course I would add a pair if necessary to achieve reasonable “full range” music frequency reproduction.

Why wouldn’t I?

 

This topic is already covered in an active thread: Do you use a Subwoofer When Listening to Your Music?

 

My Family room uses Dynaudio Contour 20 monitors and a pair of DIY subwoofers I built using the Scan-Speak Revelator 13" Subwoofer - 32W/4878T in 1 cubic foot sealed enclosures.

To integrate I use an Anthem STR Preamp that has bass management and Anthem Room Correction. The sub integration and ARC works well and I can use its Home Theater Bypass when watching movies and TV’s with a Denon AVR.


In my bonus room I use a high-end DIY system designed by George Short of North Creek Music. His Vision Signatures are a floor standing MTM design using Scan-Speak Revelator drivers. I also use a pair of DIY subwoofers, an NCM 18” Leviathan in a 4 cubic foot sealed enclosure and an Aurasound 12” NS12-794-4A in a 2 cubic foot sealed enclosure.

I use a Bryston 10B-Sub electronic crossover that enables integration between the mains and the subwoofer.

 

My main speakers go down to 24 Hz. I just use the sub to generate inaudible houseshaking.

I would be more leery if I was using something like Magnepans or MLs where its hard to find a sub fast enough to mate with the panels.

 

Rel's eat Magnepans or MLs for breakfast .

 

The added hassle, potentially?

Seems that you do have to know what you’re doing in order to integrate them well
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Never say never but I prefer to avoid it. My current speakers don't reach bottom lows due to physics, they've got very small woofers. Yet, overall the speakers, complimented with the rest produce a lot a bass that sound well balanced and enjoyable.

I do use a sub for HT but I find implementation on regular 2ch system a problem. I am too demanding, unless it is unaffordable, adding an extra crossover will reduce clarity and if it's going to be unaffordable you might as well buy crazy expensive speakers. Alternatively, just adding a sub without dealing properly with the handover frequencies might suit most people but it is not for me.

I'll also have to have one or two more large pieces of equipment that take up valuable space. I would say, choose speakers that satisfy you in the bass department on their own and sacrifice a bit in the lowest area.

 

Believe me if I would ever need subwoofers I’m sure I’d overcome any “hassle”involved. With my current situation and speakers I don’t require or want subwoofers. I wouldn’t want to screw up the great bass (imho) that I have now.

 

I was against them for years, but, faced with a prospect of replacing perfectly competent speakers just because the tube amp can't drive the woofers with enough authority made me reconsider.

I added a Cambridge Audio Minx 30 sub as an experiment to a combo of PrimaLuna Four/PSB Image T-45 / Aperion supertweeters. It took some time to integrate by ear, adjusting crossover and level, but finally it sounds really good and cohesive.

So, with need and care, used judiciously - yes, one can be used successfully. But just for the ****es and giggles - no. My Wharfedale Diamond 10.7's (in another room) driven by Parasound 2250 produce about as much bass as that sub does, so there is no need.