Does anybody know if the subwoofer output is full range? I have a Dialogue Premium HP integrated. More than once I've wanted to use my amp just as a preamp. Now that the sub out is stereo (mine is mono), that might be a back door option for me.
I have moved on from the stock tubes. Nothing wrong with them or how they sound, but I bought the PL to take advantage of its tube rolling ease. It sounded great out of the box, sounds great now. No problems so far.
I use triode more and more, and it's getting to the point where I am always using it, unless I just want to listen at peak volume. The difference isn't he, but it's there. Triode just feels more relaxed, a little less urgent. I prefer the sound. It started out that I was listening to triode in the evening. Then it expanded to every time I listened to old classic rock and classical. I stuck with UL for hard rock and metal. Now I like it for everything. Its just a more welcoming, comfortable sound. ETA: I started using triode mode more when I went to KT120 power tubes.
I emailed PrimaLuna about this very question and the answer is yes, the subwoofer outputs are full range pre-outs. I was thinking of moving from my Dialogue Premium HP Integrated to the EVO 400 Integrated and having the option of using my SS monoblocks power amps. Although this is certainly doable, they convinced me that the Dialogue to EVO 400 Integrated would be of little value in terms of audible improvements. Cheers, Robert
It isn't an option because you'll damage the output transformers without a load connected- unless you want to leave headphones connected all the time, which will work. You'll just have to flip the headphone/speaker switch. I'm not convinced you'll get a performance upgrade. I'm thinking the PL is really a volume attenuator and input selector in front of the power amplifier anyway- there isn't any preamplifier to speak of. What I could see is using the integrated as a power amp with a preamp in front of it.
I'm not convinced you are correct about either of these statements as I had a lengthy email exchange with PrimaLuna specifically about using an integrated as a preamp to drive external power amps via the subwoofer outputs. There was no indication that this would be a problem for any reason. As for performance upgrade, I suppose that would depend on what the external amplifiers are vs the internal ones. But as far as the preamp section of the EVO 400 integrated vs the Dialog Premium HP integrated - they said roughly zero sonic improvement. If you have a good external powet amp(s) you want to use, you're better off upgrading to the Evo400 Preamp vs the Integrated as that is a substantial preamp upgrade - not because it can't be done with the integrated. Cheers, Robert
You might want to double check to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding. It's common knowledge that running a tube amp without a load attached will damage the output transformers. And I'm not surprised about the lack of sonic difference between the "preamp" sections of the two models. As I stated above I suspect the integrateds don't have a preamp section at all, just volume attenuation and source selection.
Thanks, Robert, for this. I was pretty sure from reading the website that performance-wise, the two preamp sections were very similar. It's refreshing for a company to admit that. My need for a preamp output would be occasional at the best. I've had power amps pass through my house and I have to get a preamp out of the basement. It would be nice to just plug in. The other back panel difference I would appreciate is the tape out. I have already solved this problem but again, having it all onboard the integrated would make life easy. With the combination of an old Niles tape deck switcher and a project board that gives me an output from my two turntables (thread "creating a line out for a stereo that doesn't have one"), I can run the sound from the Dialogue Premium HP into my whole house system. @HiFi Guy, thanks for the word of warning. I've heard that advice in the past but the thought hadn't occurred to me in this context. I think it's academic. Unless I can score a screaming deal on an EVO 400, I'll stay with what I have now. It's been ages since I've been as happy with an amp as I am with my Dialogue Premium HP integrated. The last time was maybe 1983 when I had a Mark Levinson ML-7a integrated hooked up to Yamaha BX-1 monoblocks, which were 100 watts pure Class A and heated my entire house in the spring and the fall.
I can't state with authority that the integrated can happily drive external power amps with nothing attached to its speaker terminals. Either it can, and the PrimaLuna technical Rep I was dealing with felt no need to bring up a non-issue - or it cannot and he never thought to mention that aspect. There was certainly no lack of clarity what my intention was and why, nor was the information he relayed to me unclear. If this is fairly common on tube gear (I'm certainly no expert) then anyone considering this should certainly contact PrimaLuna and specifically ask. I know if I had decided to go ahead with the integrated and it caused damage I would be pretty upset, having been given the go-ahead by tech support. Cheers, Robert
Interesting. I have a (non-HP) Dialog Premium integrated and observe a notable difference when switching between UL and Triode, especially when running EL34s in the power section. After lots of experimentation over the past couple years I’ve come to prefer the combination of UL and EL34s. In my relatively small listening room that pairing provides the best combo of stereo imaging + transparency + punch + balanced distribution of highs/mids/lows. While Triode tends to be super clean and articulate the absence of any & all low end makes it a no go for me. Even when running a quad of KT88s the Triode setting typically makes recordings sound hollow & thin.
I've had the EVO 300 for a little over a month now. Very, very happy with the sound of the stock setup, but will probably roll the EL34 tubes at some point in the near future with some NOS EL34 tubes to see if that adds any additional magic. I have Klipsch LaScala speakers and they absolutely love this combo. Considered the EVO 400, but just didn't need the extra power since Klipsch speakers are so efficient. I looked at new and vintage tube integrated amps forever and ultimately pulled the trigger on the PrimaLuna because of the auto-bias feature, the protection circuitry and PL's reputation for build quality. So far, so good.
Have you found yourself swapping between the ultralinear and triode modes at all? I normally leave the amp on ultralinear except when I'm playing some classic rock records on vinyl which can be a bit abrasive at that setting. The ability to switch between the two was a big selling point for me on going with the 300 over the 100 or 200 models and I'm even happier with the decision now that I've had some time with it.
I know you were asking him, but I now listen to music in triode almost al of the time. Sometimes I'll switch to UL but only for metal albums and only if I want a little more punch at top volume. I actually run my TV through the PL as well (I dislike surround sound, prefer stereo) and I watch TV in UL.
It's nice to have the option on the remote to switch modes, but i find myself listening in UL most of the time unless the recording bothers me then i will try it in Triode. Simple Vocals/Piano/Acoustic all sound great in Triode, but the more music/instruments that are playing at the same time the more i like UL to extend the top/bottom end and separate the mix.
I tend to leave the Dialog Premium HP in UL mode for most everything and only use Triode for recordings that have a little too much sizzle at the top end as it seems to take that edge off. The drawback is that if I'm listening fairly loud the triode mode does have to work harder and it's audible. My speakers are not particularly efficient but UL mode sounds effortless at any volume. I picked up a new Evo400 Preamp about 10 days ago and all I can say is wow! I'm using the HP as a power amp via the HT inputs. The HP is my first tube gear and it was a revelation. The new preamp with the HP as power amp is absolutely staggeringly good. I'm lousy at description but it's just more effortless bass, supernatural mids and smooth but more detailed top end. But the biggest difference is in the soundstage and imaging. I had a whole thread on soundstage because I have never had nor experienced anything like many people wax on about. To the point where I believed I have a psychoacoustic problem with my hearing/brain. The Evo400 Preamp slapped a cure on my ass. On some recordings I'm hearing things directly beside or behind me. I kid you not. It's creepy. I'm saving up for an EVO 400 power amp, then I'll sell the Dialogue HP. Cheers, Robert
Let me tell you the difference is truly shocking. The Dialogue Premium HP is an excellent integrated that opened my eyes to just how good tube gear can be. But the dedicated tube preamp is on another level. If you could do an in-house demo with your Dialog as the power amp... well, only do so if you're ready to part with some cash... Cheers, Robert
I own Dialogue HP power amp. With the stock EL34 tubes the difference between ultralinear and triode was barely noticeable and only during longer listening sessions. Once I upgraded to KT150s the difference between two modes became very clear and immediately apparent after switching.
You may consider geting to your dream in stages as I am, which is also less risky if you find you're disappointed by the first stage (unlikely): If your integrated has a set of HT-bypass (or pre-ins) inputs , then you can start by simply getting the PL preamp. In fact, I'm confident this is where the single largest improvement will come. Worse case, you dislike it and you still have your integrated to fall back on. But you'll likely love it. Later you can trade your integrated for a power amp of your choice. Then if you feel you need more power, buy a matching power amp and bridge them to mono. Granted, power amps designed as a monoblocks vs a stereo one bridged to mono typically perform better. Anyway, just a thought. Cheers, Robert
The images of the insides of these things are really telling. I recently bought the Dialogue Premium power amp and was really not satisfied with it after 120 hours. I would call it Mid-Fi. I went to the PL website and looked at the insides. There is a big difference between that at the HP version: better coupling caps and a lot more Takman resistors. So I took advantage of the satisfaction guarantee and moved up to the Evo400. Well, big difference: more resolution, more delicacy, quieter. That was the first few minutes it was on. It embarrassed the DP. Same bass slam...but more mid and upper frequency air and detail. Also difference between UL and Triode is much more subtle with 4 extra tubes. That said, the DP had no trouble driving my 88db Salk Songtowers. But the Evo 400 is more refined...probably the best way to put it. Not even at 20 hours...only slight improvements in openness and focus...but I’m generally happy with it. With regard tot the power amps only: If you have a DP HP, it will probably be a subtle improvement to move up to the Evo 400. If you have a DP, it will be a big upgrade to move up to the Evo 300. Just look inside.
...well that’s the interesting thing: there are lot more pink resistors per tube in the DPHP than the DP. The DP is almost devoid of Takman resistors. For example, in the HP, 3 of the 4 resistors are Takman. In the DP, 1 of the 4 are Takman. DPHP also uses completely different (better) coupling caps than the DP. You would think the only difference would be the quantity of tubes...but there is a big jump in component quality when you order 8 tubes. I heard the difference in resolution immediately playing a very familiar track with the Evo400. You should love your HP...it’s not at all much different than the Evo400. The real change in the Evo line is everything below the 8 tube models. The upgraded parts are found all the way down to the Evo100. That’s where most of the improvements were implemented. Interestingly, my NOS Carver TFM-35 has better overall resolution than the Evo400. In the upper frequency detail and air, the Carver was nearly the equal of the Don Sachs Kootenay. But the Evo 400 is much more fun to listen too with better imaging and overall sound than the Carver but less than the Kootenay.
