Pro-Ject claims that most CD players have never seen more than 10 bits.

Yesterday I was browsing to check some new audio products, and this is what I saw in the Pro-Ject audio official site, regarding their CD Box RS2 T transport (you can read the whole presentation here:

CD Box RS2 T – Pro-Ject Audio Systems

“Actual Redbook CD players have gotten rare, real high-end mechanisms aren‘t even existing anymore. Today, we know that the drive is essential for reading all the 16 bits out of a CD and most CD players have never seen more than 10 bits. The CD medium might have gotten an unfavorable reputation as a result, which is why it is time to create a perfect, top-class CD transport again.”

Do you think this is true, or just some sort of arrogant and silly advertisement? If true, it deserves quite a disscussion, IMO.

 

Looks like an updated version of the Philips Pro 2 mechanism which is a good place to begin. AN bought all of Philips available stock when they announced they were discontinuing production of the Pro 2 versions. All the AN versions were modified with blackgate's and the power supplies were considerably stiffened so Projects efforts may just be relying on the transport mechanism as a sell through without paying much attention to the power supply given the size of the actual units in the photo gallery. Maybe that's why it can be cheaper.

 

I can understand this, and I tend to believe that this transport is very good and reliable, I just wonder if the claim that most CD players "see" no more than 10 bits is true. Up to now all disscussion I saw about the difference between CD transport emphasised power supplies, mechanical noise, error correction etc., but I never heard the claim that most transports actually read at lower bit rates and only very few expensive ones are able to extrat the digital data in its original 16 bit form (and perhaps some half-hi-end transort "see" up to 12 or 14 bits). Is this even technically possible? I really don't have an idea.

 

I wouldn't dispute a high quality transport is the starting point of a great cd player but other things do come in such as the implementation of the digital to analogue conversion and power supplies. I am pleased they are giving the transport some consideration given some of those I have seen fitted to £400+ players.

 

I suppose in the sense that some CDs are mastered from analog sources that may not exceed 10 bits (60 dB) in dynamic range, but still it's a misleading statement. Of course, CD players "see" all 16 bits; how else would things like HDCD work?

 

That's ok, I just wonder how legit is this claim: the drive is essential for reading all the 16 bits out of a CD and most CD players have never seen more than 10 bits.

 

Exactly, or a SACD. If what Pro-Ject claims is true, this means that all hi res physical formats are a joke. If a mid-fi dedicated redbook CD played is not able to read more than 10 bits, what would possibly read from a SACD or DVD audio the transport of some universal player of the likes of Pioneer's and Oppo's?

 

Evidence for this claim??

 

I wonder which 10 bits they suggest we are receiving? The upper 10 bits? The lower 10 bits? A random collection of 10 out of 16 bits? Their claim is beyond completely erroneous. Thanks for sharing this claim with us, it really helps me decide which vendor I WON'T spend money with in the future.

Rather than trust this manufacturer, or trust faceless respondents to your query on the Internet, just test this for yourself in the privacy of your own home. Create a CD where you know all 16 bits. Play this CD on a typical lowly mass produced pedestrian CD player. Capture the SPDIF output. Examine the captured data for all 16 bits you put in there. Marvel at the stark creativity of Pro-Ject's marketing department.

I believe most will agree that computer CD-ROM drives are super cheap, and about on par with CD players of today. Somehow, ripping programs can extract all 16 bits of a CD, in spite of using a chintzy drive. Go figure.

 

I'm all in favor of companies making new CD players and transports for those that want them.

What I am not in favor of is companies making dubious claims as a form of scare tactic marketing.

The B.S. detector is on high alert with this one folks, code red.

I know of at least two people that can test this new transport and verify or debunk such claims by Pro-Ject. Let them put their money where their mouth is and submit a unit for independent bench testing.

 

The main player I'm using at the moment (Denon DCD 1520AE) have digital inputs in order to work as a DAC only, and it shows the bit rate of the received signal. So if I play a CD on my cheap Pioneer Blu Ray player, connected with a coaxial digital cable, it always shows 16 bits. Same if I connect my bottom of the line but great sounding Marantz 5005 via the SPDIF input. I don't know if that's an indication that the Pioneer and the Marantz "see all the bits". On the other hand the sound in this case is a bit different (I would say a bit inferior and edgy) compared to when I listen to the same CD spinning by the Denon (but of course this could be the cable or something else). I have always being confused about dedicated CD transports and why there are so many and so expensive transport-only machines that claims to offer different "sound", and I heard different explanations regarding this, but this Pro-Ject claim beats them all, and to me is quite shocking.

 

Actual Redbook CD players have gotten rare, real high-end mechanisms aren‘t even existing anymore. Today, we know that the drive is essential for reading all the 16 bits out of a CD and most CD players have never seen more than 10 bits. The CD medium might have gotten an unfavorable reputation as a result,...​

Complete nonsense. Marketing BS preying on ignorant customers.

CD audio has error correction code to ensure even if you drilled several 2mm holes in the CD, you still get the original 16 bits as imprinted or stamped on the CD, and this is what comes out of the player's digital output. You can get verified bit-accurate rips on your $15 computer CD-ROM drive.

"platter made of 100% real carbon fiber".. Really? No epoxy resin at all? And CD players have a "platter"?

Far as I can see, StreamUnlimited/BlueTiger doesn't really make a complete transport, although others might advertise "CD-80 transport" with no other mention. Instead this is a servo board for Sony or Sanyo optical pickups, and is based on CD-specific chipsets from NXP and Amtek. They also make a loading drawer mechanism to put it all in, the "transport" part, I guess. Bryston BCD-3, Gold Note CD-1000, Wadia are other OEMs with these units.

 

The real question is, how much better is their transport mechanism than Rega's CD player, which uses a cheapo off the shelf boombox mechanism? Do we get more magic bits? I'm seriously going to be up all night now wondering where my missing 6 bits are.

 

Many firms in audio are apt at making statements that distort or conceal the truth. Some decide to defy the established rules and conventions and live by their own.

Bose used to make the claim their speakers and gear offered the best sound in the world, without any specific data to substantiate it. And their marketing department was effective enough to convince millions of people around the globe into believing this statement - just imagine their sales over the past decades.

Rega does not believe in VTA adjustments, will not publish wow & flutter specs, makes their tonearms specifically useful for their own carts (and pretty inconvenient with others), and still manages to have hordes of adulating fans.

Audio Note UK makes a statement like this with their gear, direct quote:

"It has been specifically engineered for sonic performance rather than technical specification, and offers an outstanding level of performance and value." - Kind of reminds me of Bose.

And under that guise they will not even publish those specification. For instance, they will not publish the gain value for a phono preamp. They just expect you to believe it's good because they say it. You have no idea if it's a good match for your cartridge, you just have to trust it is. I guess they expect you to make sure of it by pairing it... with their cartridge. - Kind of reminds me of Apple, and all their proprietary tie-ins, and the lies they've been pushing for years.

And pretty much every audio maker around makes, in one shape or another, the following statement about their products, regardless of the price bracket it's in: "At this price - nobody can even come close!", even if they're talking about a $10K piece of gear. A bit of an exaggeration, and so overused that I've even stopped paying attention to these claims by now.

The point I'm trying to make is that in the world of audio, especially the higher end of it, misleading statements and outrageous behaviors are the norm. I don't see why it is Pro-Ject's statement that incurs so much ire, while people will readily forgive Audio Note UK for being a thief, Bose for being a liar, Rega for defying established conventions, and so on and so forth.

 

What kind of ganja were Pro-Ject smoking anyways? Were they only using lo-fi black metal recordings on CD to prove their nutty claims?

 

I'd like to see their CD Box be subjected to a listening test, like this one which revealed that most people couldn't tell the difference between a very early prototype 14-bit CD player and a much more advanced one with an 18-bit DAC:

 

It's not that I haven't taken issue with claims from various companies, I have. This is just one of the most dubious claims I've heard in awhile.

 

I mostly agree with you, especially about Rega (they also claimed that you don't have to clean your records, just leave the needle to take the dust and then clean the needle..), but this claim by Pro-ject is quite...how to say...mathematically specific, and destroy the basics of what we know (or we think we know) about CD playback.
My intention is not to bash Pro-Ject, but their statement really made me think if there could be some truth in it (because it sounds so scientific and firm), or this is just the most ridiculous marketing nonsense I ever read about audio product.

 

Oh, I agree with you, this is rather like denying 2 + 2 = 4. I guess my reply was aimed more at the person who indignantly said he would stay away from buying Pro-Ject gear because of this. If this were the logic - he would have to stay away from many manufacturers.

I follow my own advice, too - I stay away from Rega turntables and arms, due to their idiosyncratic nature described above, and will never buy anything from Audio Note UK where an equivalent is still produced by Kondo of Japan. That is, no amps, phonos, transformers, and MC carts. I might still consider their stuff equivalent of which isn't made by Kondo - digital, speakers, and MM carts. And, it goes without saying - no Bose

But this Pro-Ject gaffe I can forgive. It's obvious it was written by their marketing "gurus", not their engineering staff. Perhaps once their engineers get a whiff of this gaffe they will pull this statement down (as well as some of their hairs...)

 

Everyone knows that you don't see bits 10-15 without a green magic marker.

 

And you have to demagnetize your disc in order to get bit 9. (It's a stubborn little bugger.......)

 

Pro-Ject may be stating facts; but, speculating on the effect of the facts, i.e. a better sound, in some manner better can be discerned. Of that, they have not shown their statement is truthful. Of course, advertising is not about the truth, it's about believing.

 

I really didn't intend for it to be interpreted as indignantly saying I'd avoid purchasing Pro-Ject products. My true intentions was to share "matter-of-factly" that I would not consider purchasing ANY digital product from Pro-Ject if this is how the choose to show the world what their understanding of digital electronics is. But, I don't reserve this disdain exclusively for Pro-Ject. Plenty of companies have stated publicly that they don't understand the very products they hope you buy from them.

I wouldn't buy Bose speakers, because I've heard them before.

I wouldn't buy Rega tables, because I would want a table that performs well.

I wouldn't buy Audio Note, because I've read plenty of their philosophy online.

 

We're largely of the same mind then.

 

This is the same transport StreamUnlimited used in $20,000-S50,000 machines by DCS , Gryphon , Mentronome etc
Thinking about getting a CD/SACD transport