"Prog's crowning achievement" — Which LP is it?

You seem to mention Meddle and Atom Heart Mother as prog albums but in my opinion the two long pieces Echoes and Atom Heart Mother are the only tracks really touching upon that genre on those albums. I would never call Fearless, San Tropez, Summer '68 etc prog.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, but if that statement were to theoretically be true, it would make it impossible for Prog to be a genre.

 

Equally I would not call Benny the Bouncer, Ripples, Going for the one, Wonderous Stories and countless other tracks on 'Prog' albums Prog. Very few classic Prog albums are as you describe. Tales, Close to the Edge and Relayer. that's about it.

 

In The Land of Grey and Pink

Though I refuse to play. It's like saying 'what is the best tree'?

 

Fair point as I'm not really familiar with those tracks and the genre overall. It is just that when I have dipped my toe into the genre by listening to some classics by Yes, early Genesis, King Crimson and also a bit of Dream Theatre I have heard a sonic and stylistic world I don't connect with Floyd at all and that I am struggeling a lot more to connect with personally as well.

Not really important for me to win this argument though. I guess we all hear things a bit differently and that is fine.

 

Well actually Floyd is often considered to belong to a sub-genre of prog called "space rock" which owes more to psychedelic music influences than the classical music influenced "symphonic prog" which seems to be the only "true prog" in a lot of people's minds - Yes, Genesis, ELP etc...

Funny how fans of "prog rock" can be so conservatively small minded in regards to what they proudly claim to be the boundless, far-reaching, forward looking "anything goes" progressiveness of "prog(ressive) rock".

It ain't all just about mellotrons, folks!

 

I think most can agree we have a narrow definition we can mainly agree on, but it is recognised by reference to key bands. ELP, Genesis, Yes and King Crimson. I would argue they are distinct strands ploughing different furrows. ELP is nothing like Yes. Genesis nothing like King Crimson. I would include Pink Floyd in this core reference bands. We then have second tier bands who follow these forrows with their own variations - Gentle Giant, Camel, Rush etc.
It is at this point that the boundaries get blurred definitions become pointless. Are bands Prog because I like Prog and I also like this band ... Talk Talk, Elbow etc. We also have bands influenced by or producing Prog albums - Queen, muse, KISS ETC.
Time signatures and lyrics are no definition, nor is musical lineage. It is for some but not all. Folk, classical, jazz, Industrial (Nine Inch Nails) . To some prog existed between 1969 to 1977 to a narrow core of mainly British bands. Fairynough. To me the more the merrier. Oldfeild, Vangelis, Tool etc.

 

In the interest of fairness and disclosure, I fully admit to considering those three bands The Holy Trinity Of Prog.

 

I don't know if anyone mentioned King Crimson -Lizard. If so-ditto. If not-it is now mentioned. And one proggish track from Grateful Dead-Terrapin Station. ( which is not a whole LP of course but...).

 

I agree too. It's a bit of a bloated mess IMHO.

 

I consider Pink Floyd and Dark side conceptual psychedelic. Not really prog at all.

 

That's exactly why I voted it as the top prog album. To me it encapsulates everything about the genre.

 

As has been mentioned, it's difficult to determine exactly what qualifies as "Prog," but I'm sure at least one of these bands/albums does, so...

for me, in order (only one album per band listed):


Dark Side of the Moon

Thick as a Brick (and not "A Passion Play," which I think is far inferior to its predecessor)

Trilogy (Emerson, Lake and Palmer)

In the Court of the Crimson King (King Crimson)

.

 

Re: The Lamb. One aspect of great art is how it can be seen so many different ways. You see a dystopian, Orwellian struggle w/ a questionable payoff; I see a story of final judgment and huge payoff.

FWIW, I see Rael dying (hovering like a fly, waiting for the windshield) and descending into a succession of events in the underworld. Throughout he sees his brother at different times and asks for help, but is ignored. He bounces from trial to trial, lost and confused, finally seeking and getting direction from the blind Lillywhite Lilith. He then gets caught up by Sirens- the Lamia- who seduce and feed on him- but at the first taste of blood they die. In tribute, Rael consumes them and is struck by the dreaded Slipperman disease and meets his brother in the colony of Slippermen. They find there is a cure- castration: Dr.Dyper whips off their windshield wiper- but it's OK, b/c you get to carry your number w/ you in a tube. But after the cure, Rael's tube is stolen by the Black Crow.

Rael is frantic and wants to give chase; his brother again declines to help him. Rael chases but sees his tube drop into the waters below. But then a passageway back to his old world opens up- free at last! But now he hears his brother crying from the rushing waters below. The window to his old world is clsoing- he must decide between saving his bro and saving himself. Rael chooses to save his brother, braves the rapids and finally pulls him from the water- only to see himself.

My fave story in the Prog canon. Surrealistic series of fables. There are a huge number of literary references "I wandered lonely as a cloud;" the lamia are from greek mythology, etc. The music is fantastic and sets each mood so distinctly.

Two of my picks for this topic would be Tales and the Lamb- in some ways mirror-images, in others, polar opposites. The Lamb is the winner in fiction; Tales is the winner in poetry.

 

I'm a few pages behind- forgive me if this has been mentioned already.

That whole punk killed Prog was an invention of the Press and not what really happened. Prog was still going strong when punk held the throne. I didn't see Yes for the 1st time until '77 and they were still in an arena- and would be in sizable venues for every tour through the Rabin years (though they were no longer Prog by then). Many Prog bands stayed very popular into the 80's- though there draw was gradually slipping and they were painted as uncool by the press.

Punk was a reaction to Prog- I mean you can only keep pushing the limits so far, we had to get back to the basics. But it didn't kill Prog. It had it's heyday and gradually tapered off- just like any other sub-genre. The press certainly helped it's demise- Prog bands went from media darlings to pariahs almost overnight. But that was b/c the Press decided they had gone too far, so Prog was out, punk was in.

 

You got me there.

 

How about something like 'Third' by Soft Machine, or 'We're Only In It For The Money' by Zappa & the Mothers? I consider these prog and both were pretty influential and groundbreaking.

 

I can appreciate your take on Tales. Whether it's the grasp exceeding their reach or the ultimate realization of everything they'd always been working towards is a matter of perspective. I love the Ancient- Yes at their absolute rawest, most experimental. Some mind-bending tones, crazy rhythmic figures, and full of audacity. As for LoG, Yes often ends a song with a gentle denouement. It fits perfectly w/ the structure of the song as I see it, but I won't bore you w/ those details. Of course, if you don't like the results, it matters not how limit-shattering the experiment is.

I think Tales has more instances of pure, unadulterated bliss than anything ever. The album is just filled with them. And it takes some development to get from peak to valley, so Yes wanders all over the place. What some see as padding, I see as dynamic movement. The slow parts, which do actually contain a lot of accents and motifs going on right at the edge of perception, are necessary to help build to the more intense passages.

Not that I'm trying to change your mind- just offering the perspective of someone who feels Tales is Yes' peak.

 

Can - Tago Mago or Ege Bamyasi

 

I use the term prog b/c people generally know what you mean, but it was an appellation used mostly after the fact. If it can only be defined through examples, it's not really valid, is it?

When these guys all started, they were just doing progressive music. Progressive rock got shortened to Prog as a way to describe a small amount of progressive music in the rock vein that had certain characteristics. It was previously called symphonic rock. But Floyd was undoubtedly progressive and they were rock. So they were progressive rock, but not prog? What about Hendrix? Didn't get much more progressive. Zappa? It all gets a little meaningless until you define a term.

 

Prog's crowning achievement? It' can't be just an LP, it must be King Arthur On Ice!

 

How come every thread about prog rock becomes a thread about what is and what isn't prog rock?

 

Just a pointer: it is actually possible to disagree with someone, even on the internet, without talking like this.

 

I try to think of one but ends up with a top ten.

 

My mom favors AHM over DSOTM......