No, just one, the Hancock version. Winner was not working with Sony. He says that in the video. He has the set that Schapp had and messed up when EQing, Winner explains that too. Winner was just working on it to see whether he could improve it from the Schapp version. In the video he says he still tweaking it.
Watched only 30 minutes of the video so far. Hope the Hancock version gets released and beats Jasmine. Even on Youtube, you can tell how good the version Winner received sounds.
Actually, I read your post closer. Actually, it’s kinda more of a yes, but according to Winner, his wasn’t finished and not slated for issuing. The Hancock version is different from the Schaap and I believe is from a different source. Long sorted story about the transcribing of the original concert. I have heard the sound is good on this Hancock/Sony new unreleased version.
This is a fantastic video. These are the sorts of things I like watching. I have a hard time hearing slight differences in recordings myself, but once pointed out to me, I'll hear them forever. I love the detail he goes into. It helps those of us who did not experience that concert to capture a glimmer of the excitement of the time.
Winner believes he has the discs Schaap had but he thinks Schaap used the wrong stylus and then accidentally left out 30 seconds of “I got rhythm” and could have fixed the skip in Clayton’s “Honeysuckle Rose.” The Jasmine version used the Schaap/Sony version with all the mistakes but just EQed it better. The Hancock version has the entire “I Got Rhythm” (Note: so do all the pre-Schaap versions) and fixes the Honeysuckle Rose solo (the pre-Schaap versions don’t not have Clayton’s 3 chorus, the Freddie Greene solo, or the Harry Carney solo-Bill Savory mastered the original Carnegie Hall concert made the edits to Honeysuckle Rose, left off Sometimes I’m Happy, and If Dreams Come True), mainly to fit the concert on 2lps.
Perhaps it's been said or noted in the video - good lunchtime viewing! - but I assume the hold-up is the Goodman estate. Somehow I think it is legally suspect, but the Firestone biography insists a (if not the) legal impediment to the issuance of at least the radio broadcasts (e.g., the Savory recordings) is having to track down the estate of every single musician who played on the recordings and pay them a fee (making the cost not worth the issuance of the music, even if all such musicians could be identified). I find this hard to believe. I've never heard of that being a problem before, and Mosaic and others seem to have managed to issue such recordings.
Does Schaap have any audio engineering credentials sufficient to allow his to undertake such a project? I always pegged him mostly, if not exclusively, a jazz historian.
My question exactly, especially after watching the video and listening to Winner. It sounds from this and other sources that Schaap didn't have the engineering credentials to undertake such a delicate task. One would think that with a concert this historic and the discs so old and fragile that he would have left it to engineering experts. It's akin to me finding a copy of video of Judy at Carnegie and putting it my video machine and letting it whirl.
Is there still really that much money to be made on these releases? I know from conversations about Motown reissues that Universal makes very, very little, if anything, on the reissues of the Supremes original albums and they are 30 years more current than Goodman. At this point, I wouldn't think they would make enough to cover costs, but I don't know how the industry works on catalog reissues. Anyone know?
An optimist would believe that Sony is planning a box set that would include the Carnegie Hall concert, the Jazz Concert No.2 and a large chunk of the remaining Savory recordings. Maybe a big splash of a reissue like that would net more money than a simple reissue of the Carnegie Hall concert.
Oh, what a dream that would be. I find it highly unlikely, though. I think if the Goodman estate does ever give its permission, Mosaic would probably be doing it. I am not sure who is holding the Carnegie Hall release up, the estate or Sony or both. Supposedly, I have heard that there is a completely finished product with notes and pictures. There was supposed to be a record store day release 2 years ago. Of course, I love the optimist approach so I am writing Santa now to bring me your expanded set, there are extraordinary things in that Savory collection- of note, the entire Martin Block jam session with Teddy Wilson, Lester Young, Benny Goodman, Roy Eldridge and Jo Jones. Most of us have heard the last piece “I Know that You Know” in poor sound, to boot. Well, there are several other tunes and the whole thing is in pristine sound. Heard it at the Harlem Museum.
I do believe in Santa, I do believe, I do, I do. I just don't get it. The audience for this stuff just ain't growing. How much longer do they think it will sell? Would more than 10% of the market know the difference between any of the competing "at Carnegie" sets on Amazon? Would they particularly care?
I know, I don’t get it either. I think the estates are run by people who overestimate the money draw of their client and the major labels are too focus on big money to care about any money. And, probably none of them even know how great the music is of the artist they are protecting or neglecting.
I find it unlikely, as well, but it might be that Sony wants the whole shebang under their name (not Mosaic's). Ego could be a driving force here (though I imagine with the Goodman estate, as with the Zappa estate, it's money first, legacy second). It's probably for the best that Benny doesn't have a grandson or great-grandson who wants to play his music, right Dweez? Now, who would have thought I could squeeze Frank Zappa into a discussion about building a Benny Goodman collection?
Hey, well, I got Judy and the Supremes in. Before I go down another extended rabbit-hole, have the Blu-Discs been released anywhere on CD? I'm finding most of them are not on the Colombia/Okeh Mosaic.
The short answer is no. However, some the blu-disc alternate takes are on the mosaic set, the mosaic discography does list the blu-disc alternates they used. But, the mosaic set does not include alternates with vocals, which the blu-disc do. Also, the sextet tracks On the blu-disc’s with Charlie Christian made it to the Columbia complete BG Charlie Christian set. Plus, some of the blu-disc have alternates from the Victor 1930’s sessions and also from the Capitol period. Some of those have made it to cd. Mr Music MMCD-7039 ‘Live’ Coast to Coast’ has the recordings from side 2 of Blu-disc T-1012, plus some additional selections. Sadly, most of Blu-Disc 5001;5002 the “Best of Jerry Newhouse” has not made it to cd. There is some excellence Dave Tough on there. Listen for when Bud Freeman solos, Tough and Jeff Stacy go into a funky groove each time, little throw make to their early days.
Do you have the Soundcraft LPs-1019, 1020, and 1021? All of 1019 and 1020 are “Benny Goodman’s Golden Era” PHONT NCD 8843/8844 and PHONT NCD 8845/8846. Look for the first volume too, PHONT NCD 8841/8842.
Finished the video today. Highly interesting. I find it very hard to believe, however, that Winner put that much work into restoring and otherwise (re)mastering the originals simply for his own amusement.
I know what you mean. I wonder if there is some version competition between a Winner version and a Hancock version. Probably will never know, and don’t care, I just want one of them because from what I know either is better than the incomplete Schapp mess.
Finally got it in N- condition and a very nice (low) price _ not nice is the liner notes are in japanese language CBS/Sony 36AP 1417~17 Complete 1937-38 Jazz Concert "The King Od Swing - Benny Goodman and his original Orchetra, Trio and Quartet"
Can you tell if there are any effects or other EQ tricks added to this set? I have the 1952 set and like that it is clear and has little or no effect added
To me it sounds quite "natural" considering the time and way it was recorded. Its a milestone in the Swing history.
If you listen to the Bill Savory collection at the Harlem museum you can tell that Savory EQed them some for the Columbia release to give them a consistent sound. But, of course he knew what he was doing since he is the one who patched into live radio broadcast of each performance. These Camel Caravan performances are from his collection. Columbia wanted to capitalize on the great success of the Carnegie Hall concert release (which Savory mastered an EQed) so Savory offered these of which there are many more. These really show off how powerful, swinging and tight that 1937-1938 band was. I have not heard the Japanese release that you got but others have told me their Goodman releases were always done well.
Thanks for the details. I started with Stan Kenton & Shorty Rodgers before I went some steps back with the Carnege Hall concert and had then the 37-38 cocert for a lomng time on my want list. Have also some of the new modern bands from Benny when Bebop was the hype and Benny had to follow that a bit. I do agree his bands (most the CAPITOLS) were always well rehearshed and sound good. Also some Columbias. Later I progressed into Woody and Bob Florence and a lot of international & most european stuff. The big names are also well represented in my collection as is the West Coast style.
