Just a point of semantics, SIAE was formed in the 19th century, not 1970. What you've observed is a change that came into effect on 1 Jan 1970, whereby SIAE, firstly, took over the functions of SEDRIM (mechanical rights society) and secondly, ceased operating through BIEM, instead contracting direct with Italian record producers.
Stefano G., thank you very much for this thread. This information is incredibly helpful and very interesting to me. I have quite a few Italian LPs in my collection, so it will be interesting to see if anything dates from a period that I would not expect. Though it is true that often Italian vinyl is not of great quality, I have found some LPs that certainly do play very quiet and are mastered wonderfully. As for great sound, one such LP that certainly sticks out is the soundtrack to Lucio Fulci's I Quattro dell'apocalisse, credited to "Cook and Benjamin Franklin Group" and released on the Cinevox label in 1975. Cinevox was really inconsistent soundwise, however. I have some LPs (not only the later reissues) that sound very good to excellent whereas some are mastered awfully.
Thank you for an interesting thread. Very educational. Some questions, are Italian pressings something I should search for quality wise. How did the 1970's downturn post oil shortage affect Italian vinyl quality.
The pressing quality does not depend on the weight of the wax; of course, as in the rest of the world, the weight of the Italian records fell sharply after the 1973 oil crisis. In general, I can say that we must make a distinction between the Italian pressings of foreign artists and the Italian pressings of Italian artists: often, Italian editions of foreign albums sound dull and lifeless but, believe me, many Italian editions of Italian artists are damn superb! A few days ago, with a friend of mine we were listening to some records (of Italian artists) pressed by the RCA Italiana in the early 70's and I can assure you that they have a sound simply spectacular. Soon after, we put on the desk "Boogie with Canned Heat" Pure Pleasure edition mastered at Abbey Road Studios by Sean Magee: by now we were used to the sound of the RCA Italiana and I can assure you that the difference is huge in comparison to the Pure Pleasure edition: this time it was just the sound came from the Abbey Road Studios to be dull and lifeless (I'm not kidding). Probably, the poor quality of Italian release of foreign albums, also depended on the quality of the master-tape that was sent to Italy from abroad.
Thank you Stefano for this interesting topic and useful informations. I own some italian pressings of italian rock, pop acts and classical music. One of my best sounding italian pressing is an italian prog-rock album "Uomo di pezza" by Le Orme. Also, I was quite surprised by a cheap release of Traffic's second album on blue Island label (Orizzonte) : good sound and quiet vinyl. Stefano, your topic makes me think to do the same for French vinyl.
It's a good idea, believe me: for example, there are many collectors who still can not distinguish the first French pressing of "Histoire de Melody Nelson", because they are not aware of the difference between BIEM and SACEM. And this is just one example.
I know it sounds clichéd to say this about a US band,but the early US pressings of the first three Canned Heat records,deep groove,glossy labels,are the best you can get. As with many countries,there is also a marked difference in quality between the Italian pressings of the 50s and 60s,and those pressed in the 70s and 80s.
We must also consider the fact that in Italy, at least until the end of the 60s, the pressing process was still very traditional: in the 60's were still being used in Italy manual presses and not automated ones such as those that were used in the United States! Many foreign collectors often ask me why Italians records are so rare and expensive: one of the reasons I have just said.
Well, difference between BIEM and SACEM is quite simple, isn't it ? it is the same as BIEM and SIAE for Italian pressings. Before early 1971 : BIEM After early 1971 : SACEM !! "Histoire de Melody Nelson" was released in March 1971 and the first press have still BIEM on the label. But the transition towards SACEM could have been happened very slowly during 1971. Stefano, if you could have some clues regarding matrix numbers on italian pressings, it would be great to post some information. I am trying to understand matrix codes on French pressings but it is very hard to draw some useful information. I remember one year ago, I bought two amazing sounding French pressings of Creedence Clearwater Revival and The Guess Who. Since that I have decided collecting some information on French pressings, and trying to know why American acts could sound so good on a French LP (good mastering and why ? good quality vinyl, plating ... ?). The other reason why I would like to investigate French deadwax is because of disappointment of EMI Pathé-Marconi pressings which are, at least the one from the 1970's, quite awfull and it is almost impossible to know from the matrix numbers if a particular record is a 1rst, 2d, 3rd cut... It would be so great to resolve deadwax mystery of UE pressings and know as much as possible as people know on this forum about deadwax of US and UK pressings.
Well: I think that we can use this thread to answer all the questions that users of this forum may have about the Italian pressings: therefore, those who have doubts, can ask here and I will try to answer; it may happen that for a long time I did not take a look at this thread, but users can always contact me via a private message. For clarity, I now have a summary of the basic information that a collector of Italian records absolutely must know: 1 - The BIEM logo can be seen on Italian records labels during the 60s, until the beginning of 1970. 2 - The D.R. logo was used from late 1966 until early 1970. 3 - On Italian labels pressed between late 1966 and early 1970 you can meet BIEM logo or D.R. logo. 4 - Then came the S.I.A.E., in the early months of 1970, with its unmistakable brand: at first time only with the word "SIAE" written on the label, then (since about spring 1970) with its circular stamp. 5 - There are three types of SIAE stamps, and each type of stamp was used for a certain period: if he is looking for the first Italian press, the collector must always pay attention to the fact that the label of the record that he is about to buy has the type of SIAE stamp corresponding to the date of first release of the album: a record first released in 1972 must have the SIAE stamp of the first type; a record released in 1976 must have the SIAE stamp of the second type and so on. 6 - On the Italian records trail-off, we can almost always read a date (day / month / year): this date is the date when the lacquer was cut and it's not the date when the record was pressed!; the two sides of the vinyl may have etched the same date or even two different dates; this depends on the fact, of course, that starting from each lacquer the pressing-plant could be able to press a different number of vinyl: there are always two lacquers per album: one lacquer for the side A and the other for the side B: the lacquer is cut only on one side, while the other side remains untouched; for example: it may happen that starting from the lacquer of the side A we can press 100000 sides A of the album, but starting from the lacquer of the side B, we can press only 70000 sides B: at this point you need to cut a new lacquer for the second side of the record in order to continue the pressing process: this new lacquer will then have a different date than that etched on the trail-off of the first side. 7 - On the Italian records trail-off, we can almost always read a Roman numeral next to the date: after another difficult research, I came to the conclusion that the Roman numeral indicates the master-tape used for the lacquer-cutting and not the number of the lacquer: if we have in our hands an Italian press of foreign (not Italian) artist (such as Pink Floyd for example), the Roman numeral I indicates the copy of the master-tape sent to Italy from the United Kingdom; if instead we have the Roman numeral II, then it is the copy (copied in Italy) of the master-tape sent to Italy from the UK and so on. Naturally, if the record that is in our hands is an Italian press of an Italian artist, the Roman numeral I does indicate the original master-tape. 8 - When you find an Italian copy with the catalog number preceded by the letter W this copy was pressed by WEA Italiana (Warner, Elektra, Atlantic) : the letter W does indicate that it's an Italian WEA press; In Italy, WEA was founded in summer 1975: therefore if your copy shows the letter W printed on the label and/or near the catalog number, this fact does mean it was pressed in the second half of the 70s or even later; it's superfluous to say that WEA included records released by the three famous labels Warner, Elektra and Atlantic, but also by their various sub-labels such as Asylum, Reprise etc. The famous Warner logo appeared in Italy in parallel with the birth of WEA Italiana: that in the summer of 1975. 9 - Based on my opinion, every record collector should know, at least in its broad outlines, the record pressing process, otherwise it becomes very difficult to be able to distinguish the various editions of the same album; in this case, may aid this other thread: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/explanation-of-a1-b1-b2-etc.349496/ Putting all this information together, the collector has now all the elements to distinguish the various Italian editions. Personally, I think that these information are very important for collectors: many Italian records (film scores, Italian progressive-rock, Italian jazz) are among the rarest and most expensive in the world and throwing money away without knowing what you buy, no one likes it.
Wow ! Thank you so much Stefano for these information and clarity in the explanation I checked deadwax on some of my italian pressings. The Roman numeral seems to be present, in my case, only on EMI pressings. My John Lennon's "Mind Games" copy has I in the deadwax, so I guess the lacquers were cut using the UK master tapes or is it a first generation copy from the UK master tape ?? For RCA Italiana, the matrix are very different.
No record company would ship abroad its original master-tapes: abroad, are always sent copies (second generation masters) of the original master tape. The glorious RCA Italiana, used a code like this: ZKAY 12345 1S - 1A 1 where the first letter indicates the year which the album was mastered in: U corresponds to 1969 ( yes, in Italy the letter U does indicate the 1969 unlike what happened for other Nations) Z corresponds to 1970 A corresponds to 1971 B corresponds to 1972 and so on.... the second letter does indicate the country of reference (the letter K indicating Italy); the 3rd letter indicates the musical genre (the letter A indicating "popular music"); the 4th letter indicates the record format (the letter Y indicating a 12 inch Stereo 33 1/3 rpm LP); then, the next number-up-to-5-digits does indicate the number of the master-tape within the RCA Italiana catalog; the following codes indicate the number of lacquer, mother and stamper.
As for some records by RCA Italiana (such as the Francesco De Gregori's masterpiece "Rimmel"), you must keep in mind that the back-cover shows a date printed in very small characters: in such cases, you have to pay attention to the fact that the date printed on the cover matches the one printed on the label: the date printed on the cover, of course, is the date when the cover was printed: if the two dates do not match, this fact means that your copy is a later re-press. Paying attention to every detail, we could easily find that the copy that we had always thought to be a first Italian press, in reality it is not. In conclusion: the collector, to be such, must necessarily pay attention to every little detail; but we already knew that!
For full disclosure, I must repeat that I had always believed that the Roman numerals stamped in dead-wax of the Italian editions would indicate the ordinal number of the lacquer just like it does with regard to the UK pressings (A1-A2-B3, etc..); then I took a look at this web page http://pinkfloydarchives.com/DItLPPF.htm where Vernon Fitch noted some Italian editions of "Ummagumma" in which it is shown that there are some cases where you can find the same Roman numeral combined with different dates: this fact shows that the Roman numeral can not indicate the number of lacquer (unless the Fitch web page contains errors ...). I tried to contact some people who in the 70s worked as mastering-engineers in Italy, but without success: many of them are now very old and it's not easy to interview them.
A couple of useful details about the SIAE stamp: the absence of the SIAE stamp does not necessarily indicate that the copy is a bootleg: not all copies had the SIAE stamp: over the years, I've seen very few copies without the SIAE stamp, but they there may be. Also: the SIAE stamp does not appear on white label promo releases.
Thank you Stefano both for this and the great thread & post! I only have one Mannucci cut - it is not on this list - namely Jethro Tull' s "This Was", a "Best Buy Series" reissue from 1981. I bought it for a penny, unknowingly; the cover is non-gatefold and the color repro is light and unpleasant... (One thing cool though, is it doesn't have "Jethro Tull This Was" on the front... No words [but the BB logo], like on the UK version!) ...But man, when I heard that sound! All I have for comparison at the moment, I think, is the original US vinyl issue, and it is a vast improvement over it to my ears (I still have two of these, I think...)! Mostly with regard to clarity IIRC (would need to re-listen to those LPs though). What do you and you guys think about this engineer's work?
Mr. Piero Mannucci began working at RCA Italiana in the late '70s: before him, at RCA Italiana we can remember Mr. Marcello Spiridioni, another big name in Italian mastering; RCA Italiana was like a "little EMI": recorded, mixed, mastered and pressed all its albums within its historic plant in Rome, on the Via Tiburtina; I can guarantee that the productions of the RCA Italiana (I'm talking about Italian pressings of Italian artists) during those years were simply spectacular: for example, I'm one of the lucky few collectors in the world to have had the opportunity to listen to an original copy of Balletto di Bronzo's "Sirio 2222" and it has a truly indescribable sound (unfortunately it is a very rare and a very very expensive record, so few people have had the good fortune to listen to it in its first Italian press): it is like having the band playing in front of you.
I own an original Italian pressing of the Beatles "White Album" with the BIEM logo at the upper left of the Apple label. It has the pressing date of 14-11-68 stamped in the run out. Surprisingly it is housed in s German manufactured cover. With what appears to be a German printed poster and set of 4 photos. It's not a bad sounding pressing, but pales next to a 1st pressing UK and/or German. It still sounds a lot better than most US pressings.
14-11-1968 is not the pressing date! it's the date when the lacquer was cut in Italy: this date does mean that your copy was originated by a lacquer cut November 14, 1968. The first "White Album" Italian press must have: gatefold cover laminated and made in Germany (yes, all "White album" Italian copies pressed in 1968 and 1969, had a made in Germany cover; since 1970, the cover was printed in Italy, too.); BIEM logo and not SIAE logo; it had the poster with the picture of Paul McCartney censored with a "X": later copies did not have this censorship; the real first Italian press of the "White Album" is really very very rare!
Are you referring in this part of your post to Mannucci's or Spiridioni's work? I couldn't wait a second more and went downstairs to spin a couple of tracks from my Italian "This Was" late reissue. Yes, detailed as from my initial impression, but also and almost on top of that, like you say, "like having the band playing in front of you" would sum up how I hear this album. I lack knowledge and vocabulary to describe these things. The rhythm section especially is tight and live in the room... And the pressing is nice and quiet on top of that!
Both: in the 60's and 70's, at RCA Italiana worked the best engineers: RCA Italiana was the Italian record company. Your copy of "This Was" is an Italian re-issue of a UK album: for the best "Italian" sound I would recommend Italian first pressings of Italian artists....
OK. BTW, your first post refers to PFM's "Per Un Amico". I bought an early one on the Numero Uno label, in the mid-70s (probably in 1975). Sadly/stupidly I departed with it on the collectors market long ago... But in those days where I was so heavily into prog, I would use this one as showcase album on my "hi-fi". It was so gorgeous! Who would have cut this one? I know this is vague and you are so thorough and accurate... But still, any idea about that?
The "Numero Uno" label was an RCA Italiana sub-label; "per Un Amico" was recorded by Mr. Gaetano Ria; Mr. Gaetano Ria and Mr. Enzo Martella are two recording-engineers simply legendary, here in Italy: absolute guarantee of quality: they both worked at RCA Italiana; as the "Numero Uno" label was an RCA Italiana sub-label, probably this album was mastered by a mastering engineer who worked at the RCA in 1972; nor Marcello Spiridioni, nor Piero Mannucci still working at RCA Italiana, in 1972. Now, unfortunately, at the moment I can not find out the name of who mastered "Per Un Amico". I can tell you that the first Italian press has a gatefold cover, the SIAE stamp of the first type and the "pressing-ring" in diameter much greater than the later repress. I can give you some good news: among the Italian progressive-rock album, this one is among the cheaper ones because at that time it sold a lot of copies (so it is not rare) and there are few collectors who know how to distinguish the first Italian press from subsequent repressings (they are very similar)...
