I made a mistake, I copied and pasted this comment from a different thread in which I had previously said that I had not experienced sound degradation pairing the 2M Black with the Parasound JC3+ regarding too much gain. But I was wrong. I realized that by comparing the 5mV 2M Black with these other two cartridges with lower output. In this thread I had already stated that (post #222) but not in the other from which I copied the previous reply.
Careful experimentation with gain matching CAN improve the transfer from one device to another. In the recording business it is a well known fact of life that when you send a signal from the output of one device it will have a "reactive" relationship with the next piece of gear the signal hits. In some cases due to the "inertia" of solid state at low signal levels it can really "wake up" the finished sound by hitting those transistors "hot". This results in a "richer' signal as more of the guts of the sound gets through the inherent sound deadening characteristics of your next transistor input stage in the chain. Your job is to carefully balance signal to noise/improvement in balls/nasty increase in clipped off top signals (treble) and decide for yourself what level of "hot" signal your particular chain of components likes the best. Tube gear in general is a bit more noisy than transistor but as the device (tubes) are normally idling wide open there is little to impede good transfer of balls and detail with tubes. Transistors on the other hand can be a bit stubborn to get them to "wake up." I like to run my transistor stages as hot as possible without deleterious effects to the top end or general compression due to overly fat signals. Experiment. It's YOUR ears...
hello guys and thank you for this wonderful thread. i am using an integrated Sansui au 717 amplifier. Manual says that the phono input sensitivity and impedance (at 1khz for rated power output), is 2.5mV/47kohm (max input capability 350mv @1khz). iam running a denon dl 110, @47kohm. The denon has an output of 1.6 mv according to official specs, but 2.2mvolt is what i see all over the internet as the real value. Can someone tell me what the gain should be set at, at either 1.6 or 2.2 mvolt? I don't know which is more accurate. And i don't k ow how to count it myself unfortunately. Kab, and the other formula, got me so puzzled.... thank you
It sounds like you already have the cartridge and phono stage and the rest, so can't you tell if it has enough gain? Do you have to turn up the volume almost all the way when playing records? The line inputs on the AU-717 have sensitivity of 150mV for full output of power amplifier, and phono 2.5mV, so I guess that means around 36dB gain in the phono stage. You may be on the low side with the DL110, but if it works, it works. A cartridge with output voltage rating of 1.6mV will have a much higher output at times, the 1.6mV is just a reference value.
There's only one formula. This was explained in the first page of this thread. All calculators use the same formula, but KAB says that the maximum output from the phono stage into the line stage (cartridge output and phono gain) should be 325mV, while the other calculators use 1V, 1.25V or even 2V. In my system I have around 750mV (3mV cartridge + 48dB phono). I think it sounds great. Considering audible distortion, or lack of, sounds as good as when I was using a 4mV cartridge (1V into the line stage). Ortofon 2M Black, specd at 5mV but measured around 8mV elsewhere was clearly too much with a lot of records though. The KAB values are conservative. The ideal output depends on the system, overload margins etc. It is possible that higher output won't distort and that it might even sound better. But you will have to test your system yourself to be sure. If you wanna be on the safe side, stay within the 350mV specd of your amplifier. Use KAB.
well, i read in various threads all over the internet, when i was researching, that even a 45db gain instead of a 44, could make a difference in sound. do i have enough gain? well yes i have. is it the optimal amount of gain? i dunno. ears can be deceiving. thats why i want to be based on something more solid. mathematics never lie thank you my friend.
My question here might be a bit lazy, but I was just hoping that someone could reassure me that it's okay to go ahead with a purchase before I pull the trigger: I have an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II cartridge with an output of 0.3 mV. If aiming for an output of 1.2 volt from the phono stage I would need (1.2/0.0003 = 4000. Log of 4000 = 3,602. 3.602 x 20) = 72.04 dB of gain. If aiming for an output of 1.5 volt I need = 73.97 dB of gain. If I'm only aiming for 1 volt output I would = 70.45 dB of gain. I'm considering buying a specific phono stage with 70 dB gain. Would that be okay? I'm worried that I would get clipping and that I should instead buy one of two other phono stages that I've been looking at, one with 65 dB gain and the other with 66 dB (as far as I could tell). I did, however, recently try 64 dB of gain, although only very briefly, and I did feel that I could go louder than that. So, the reason I'm worried about clipping is that I might not understand the whole issue about input sensitivity in the (main) amplifier (not the phono preamp) correctly. If my amplifier has an input sensitivity of 1 volt, but the phono stage output is 1.2 or 1.5 volt, would that mean that my main amplifier would easily clip? And I don't really understand why the output of a CD player is 2 volt when the amplifier's sensitivity is 1 volt, 500 milivolt, or even in my case on my Naim NAC 202, only 75 milivolt. Does that mean that the CD player makes the amplifier clip every time it hits peak levels? Some people have said the "Naim sound" really is just an extremely high input sensitivity, so the amps clip easily, which compresses the music and makes it sound lively and exciting. Whether that is the case I can't say, but if it is so, I'm considering buying Arcam or something, as they list their sensitivity as 1 volt. Anyway, I'm digressing. I hope you guys can answer if the amount of gain would be okay for my needs, and if the input sensitivity would be an issue and if I understand the sensitivity question correctly.
The CD player is typically 2V maximum, it can't go any higher, that corresponds to digital full scale. Your phono cartridge is specified at a reference level of either 5cm/sec or 3.54 cm/sec, and could go much higher depending on how hot the record is cut, most phono preamps aim for an overload margin of at least 10x that reference input, some much more. The sensitivity rating of your amplifier is typically the input voltage needed for full power output, but your volume control throws away most of that input. An input sensitivity of 1.2 V is pretty high in today's audio world for an integrated amp, many are down in the 0.5 to 0.75 volt range. But in any case, the gain structure is mainly to get your volume control in the most usable range, some people like to get their phono source all the way up to the same level as the digital sources, but it doesn't need to be, sometimes with modern digital you hardly have any usable volume control range since it is so loud even at low settings, with the average level pushed up close to the maximum level by using lots of compression and peak limiting.
It really depends on the totality of the gain in your system of how much gain you need or want. My system has low gain so a few xtra dBs in my phono pre is needed and I really can't detect any audio degradation and the phono pre I have is advertised as being almost impossible to overload.
my advice is to buy a phono preamp with a range of gain settings because not all gain is created equally among different brands. one phono preamp sounded excellent at 66db gain while another one sounded overloaded and non-linear at 64db gain, same cartridge, turntable and amplifier. for your particular case i would like to see at least 60db gain minimum and have the capacity to up this to 64, 66 or 70db in the same preamp.
As @Davey said, input sensibility is the minimum you need for a certain output. It does not mean you cannot use more. My Halo has these specs: Preamp Stage Input Sensitivity 300 mV in for 1 V at Pre Out jacks Power Amplifier Stage Sensitivity 1 V at Bypass/Amp In for 28 V at Speaker Out If I’m not mistaken, and someone can correct me if I am, this means that I need at least 300mV from the phono stage to have 28V at speaker out. It does not mean I need exactly 300mV, rather at least 300mV. A CD Player giving peaks of 2V won’t overload it. My cartridge + phono gives about 750mV and usually plays at a lower volume than the CD Player, although sometimes it’s the opposite (some records are cut hot, and some CDs aren’t too loud). In my experience, for my phono + amp, 750 is fine, even 1V is fine. To be safe, you could try a phono stage with adjustable gain to have some margin, say from 300mV to 1V, to experiment with, as said above.
I've run a 0.3 mV cart with different phono's through the range of 60-61-64-65-66 dB. At 60-61, it sounded a bit thin, but that was with a receiver with a 500 mV input sensitivity, as 0.3 mV into 60 dB only produces 300 mV. At 64, 65, and 66 dB the sound is good. Right now, I'm using 64 dB, and it sounds just fine. What also helps is that I now use a separate line stage preamp before a power amp, so extra gain is always at my fingertips. As a general rule (for myself), I look to produce at least about 500 mV output from the phono into the line stage. Up to 750 mV I consider fine, above - too much for my liking. I recently ran a 4 mV cart into 51 dB, by accident, and knew right away, in the first seconds of playing, that something was off - the sound was just too bloated. As far as the input sensitivity goes, the lower the value given - the higher the sensitivity is. In your Naim case, it needs only 75 mV of input to output its full power, Impressive. The Arcam, conversely, needs a whopping 1V - so you will need a lot more gain in your phono to produce that kind of output. So, input sensitivity of your next stage is a very good guide for how much gain you need for your cart/phono combo. For instance, I have an integrated amp with an input sensitivity of 375 mV. If I run a 4 mV cart into a phono with 40 dB of gain, it will produce only 400 mV output from the phono, contrary to my 500 mV rule. But, since the integrated has input sensitivity of only 375 mV, 400 mV is more than it needs to put out its full power, so it will work just fine. Conversely, from my first example, 0.3 mV cart into 60 dB produces 300 mV phono output. My receiver needs 500 mV for full output - its stated input sensitivity, so 300 mV was insufficient, and that's why the sound was rather thin.
Hmm. I did not understand the problem/issue. Until I realised ohh most of the preamps is active and then to get the optimal level in to those active buffer stages. So they can do as good job as possible... I use a passive preamplifier the signal goes in and ONLY a volume potentiometer attenuate the signal further. So a passive preamp we do not need to optimize level into it. A potentiometer make more and more "harm" the more you attenuate.. because you only add more and more resistance. To the point when you have full volume = no resistive load is applied. So if the input level is rather low from the RIAA then we can choose the lower resistance on our volume potentiometer. Generally the RIAA has better THD and SNR the lower gain you use. So a synergy with passive preamplifier and lower gain on RIAA is obtained. You need to use the volume knob at 2-4 o'clock. And you need to turn it down before you switch to another input. So the only small downside is that you don't use the same volume setting between sources. And that is a small sacrifice for me when I know I get all the other bennifits from the above. The short version is that this is all about what preamplifier you use. And a passive preamplifier there you have more freedom to choose the RIAA settings that has the best performance.
Thanks for all your comments, guys. Just to make sure I understand it correctly: Using 70 dB of gain on my AT33PTG/II with an output of 0.3 mV won't cause clipping or overload? I had a phono stage on loan once, which for MC carts had either 60 or 70 dB of gain (or more). I'm considering buying that one since I already did some light measurements on it, so I know that the frequency response is flat. For one of the other phono stages I had in mind I've seen the frequency response measured (also flat), but that particular preamp is double the price. For the other ones I had in mind I have no idea how the frequency response is, and many phono stages have a non-flat frequency response. My current phono stage has a very flat frequency response and I don't want to change for a phono stage with a non-linear frequency response. So that particular phono stage with 70 dB of gain would be perfect. As for Naim's super high input sensitivity I actually don't think it's such a good idea at all (since it will be very loud, and close to clipping, at 10 o'clock), but that's a completely different discussion .
Just to avoid any confusion or misunderstandings: The phono stage that I'm considering buying could either produce 60 dB of gain or 70 dB of gain, but nothing in between. It could also produce higher gain, but that would not be so relevant, as 70 dB should be enough. If 70 dB is okay I would prefer buying this preamp, as I don't know the frequency response of the others - that is, I've just found out, in a round-about way, that one of the ones that could produce 65 dB of gain, has a 2 dB spike around 13 kHz in its frequency response. So I would prefer to avoid that one.
You won't know without trying/hearing. Personally, I'd be reluctant to. 70 dB is more suitable for something like 0.2 mV or even below. With 0.3 mV, your output at 70 dB would be 948 mV - almost a full volt. In my book, it's too much, but there are other schools of thought. So - you could try, and if it sounds good to your ears - keep it.
This is what the whole thread is based on hence the recommendation to have more than typical gain available if possible and to have a range of settings to hedge your bets.
another thing that's interesting is that I have witnessed cartridges being able to make use of higher gain settings as they break in, my old audiotechnica ART9 .5mv output sounded very good with 56db of gain absolutely horrid on 66db gain when it was new. I tried 66db after ~ 225 hrs or so and man did it sound excellent- so dynamic and not over driven or non-linear at all.
Just reading about the phono MC pre 's with up to 70db?? I haven't come across any with this level. Anyone have any models /brands of such ? Keen to research.
cheers to the replies..will get reading. also after reading probably should of stated the budget of round 500 and is going into a Musical Paradise MP301 tube amp.
70dB is getting on the high end of gain. Take for example the MM Audio Technica VM540ML, it is 4.0mV @ 1 kHz, 5 cm/sec. MM preamps are "standard" across manufacturers, 36-40dB of gain. AT33PTG/2 is 0.3mV using the manufacturer's same specification, a difference of -22.5dB. As long as you have the 60dB option and aren't committed to the higher gain, you'd be fine. You should find that switching between reciever inputs gives you similar volumes, such as comparing your CD player's output to most LPs. Gain is neither frequency response nor sound quality, despite many winding threads. It is balancing the levels between receiver inputs, and balancing the compromise between noise (at too low a level) and distortion and clipping (at too high a level). Receiver input noise is rarely a concern; the phono preamp electrical noise from the gain will be higher. I would not feed an input too high a "reference calculated" level, unless it is specifically designed for high voltage, high headroom, such as a pro interface might be. Loud, dynamic vinyl, especially 45 RPM singles, can peak 10dB or more above what you calculate from gain. 2.2cm/sec @ 100Hz = +6dB above reference, for example, and "pump" mastering engineers may take their cuts above the IEC peak maximum of 12cm/s for maxi-singles.
All things considered it seems like I will just have to jump the gun and try out the phono stage I was thinking of and see if it will work. Luckily, the shop where I would buy it are very forthcoming about returns. Another phono stage that I've had a look at is the Vista Audio Phono 2, but I haven't been able to find a measurement of the frequency response. Would anybody be able to point me to where I can find it? It's so incredibly important in phono stages, and it varies a lot, yet it seems so difficult to find measurements for phono stages . The Vista Phono 2 offers many gain options, including 60, 65 and 70 dB, but since I live in Europe it seems difficult to get a hold of, and if I can't find a measurement of the frequency response I'm a bit cautious to buy that one. My current phono stage has 57 dB of gain for MC, and it's a lot lower than my CD player. So 60 dB wouldn't seem to be enough. Also, if Avanti1960 found his 0.5 mV cartridge to sound good with 66 dB of gain (which calculates to need 69 dB), then 70 dB for my 0.3 mV cart would hopefully be okay.
