I've had switchable gain phono preamps in the past but the best sounding unit I've owned has fixed gain. It's not going to work with every cartridge but does worth with a fair range of high output cartridges to the point where switchable gain is not necessary for me. If I had a larger collection of cartridges of varying output extremes and a bunch of LOMCs I might care more about having a lot of gain settings. In that case, in a perfect world, being able to adjust the gain 1 or 2dB at a time would be a neat feature to have.
my sutherland phono preamp has gain settings of 40, 46, 52, 58 and 64db. this is the perfect range for me and would allow some margin for any cartridge I would ever own.
The PS Audio GCPH is extremely versatile. With the gain knob on the front it can adjust between the gain settings and has the power to go without a line stage. Pretty impressive phono preamp for relatively cheap.
My Perreaux SXV2 phono stage has 40, 50, 60 and 70db of gain available. I run my Denon 301mk2 at 60db, which according to this thread might be a little low. Unfortuantely with 0.4mV of output the 70db setting might just be too high, especially if the Denon runs hotter than 0.4mV. It sounds punchy, fat and lively as hell at 60db. Way better than it did previously through the MC stage of my Quad 99 preamp at 58db (which incidentally is exactly what KAB recommends). Surprising what a difference 2db can make (and a better phono stage as well) - this doesn't take into consideration the added gain provided by the line stage of the 99 pre, so realistically probably higher. Great thread by the way, taught me a lot. Now i just need to think a little more about the sensitivity settings of my Quad 99 line stage that my SXV2 is plugged into (currently at 300mV but offers 100 and 775). Any thoughts on what setting I should use here?
Hi, I was wondering if someone could advise me - I have a Pioneer PLX 1000 with a VM540ML (4mv) going into a Phono Box DS and then into a JDS Atom headphone amp (I only use headphones). Well, the cartridge sounds excellent, however, I am having an issue with gain. The JDS Atom is a very powerful amp that drives my 600 ohm headphones with ease through a digital source (2v). However, on my vinyl setup, I am finding I am having to max out the headphone amp to get mediocre volume. This is obviously due to analogue being quieter and the output of the preamp most likely being 1.4v. So it's not pushing enough voltage to the headphone amp. Now, I can obviously increase the preamp gain from 40db to 50db. This gives great volume, however I am thinking it is too much gain for my 4mv cartridge. Using calculators, I can see that the optimum gain for a 4mv cartridge is 38db. So I am 12db over optimum. And listening to it on 50db, I can hear that it is less dynamic and getting too hot. Is there any possible way to remedy this rather than having to suffer quality degradation by running it at 50db to get sufficient volume?.I have seen many threads etc on cartridge gain, but none that actually address how to remedy this issue of low voltage with a headphone amp. Thanks.
Have got a new phono pre amp on the way VISTA PHONO 2 http://www.vista-audio.com/products/phono-2/index.htm Having my Nad pp2i for a couple years with my DL110 wanted something with all the range of loadings and gain for when I change to a LOMC in near future. Boris has been excellent to deal with and even let me have a special of a discount AND free shipping to AUS.
I know that this may be waaaaaay too late to answer this, but Arcam's Rphono has the option of 60, 70, 80, and 82 dB of gain for MC, and 30, 40, 50, and 52dB for MM. It's also a terrific phono stage when it comes to linearity. I've had the NAD PP-4, which is very linear, and the Rphono was just as linear, and its rumble filter was a bit more effective than on the NAD. On the Rphono you can also set capacitance and resistance. Analogue Seduction used to have the Rphono at a special offer, but I think they might have sold them all by now. The Rphono was actually also the phono preamp I talked about trying out earlier. 70 dB proved to be too much gain for my needs. It sounded perfectly fine, but the signal was just a bit too loud compared to my CD player, and I was hoping to make them more or less even, which of course is almost impossible. I ended up buying a phono preamp that can do either 60 or 66 dB of gain. The Sim Audio Moon 110LP V2 also offers 60 and 66 dB of gain, and it also lets you adjust capacitance and resistance. The phono preamp I ended up buying only lets you adjust resistance, unfortunately. I didn't discover the Moon until after buying the other one though. I have never heard the Moon, so I can't say if it's linear or not. The one I bought is linear. I did some recordings on my computer with the Arcam Rphono at 60 and 70 dB gain, as well as with my new phono preamp at 60 and 66 dB of gain, and they were completely identical, which both a listening test and some quick measurements showed me. Unless something happens when the signal goes from the phono preamp through my regular preamp, then I have concluded that all of these "audible" differences are essentially placebo. It's nothing but gain, so it's just volume level and that's it.
So, I see your post now, and it's funny that you've bought this particular preamp, because that's actually one I was thinking of buying . Can you do me a big, big favor? Are you able to record a song onto your computer with both your NAD PP-2 and your new Vista Phono and send them to me please? I'm just very curious to hear the differences. You can use whatever gain setting on your Vista Phono that you like, and the song doesn't matter - just only change the phono preamp and nothing else. If you can do this, please send me a private message, and I'll give you my e-mail address. Thanks ! In return I can do the same for you with my new phono preamp as well as my NAD PP-4 if you would like to hear the differences.
Hi just saw this..sorry has all been fitted in and yeah good choice on my pre amp..Using the DL110 tried mm setting 40 db 47k loading with and without filter setting.. was ok on par with before then switched MC 100ohm with 40db was too much amp usage then upped to 50 db similar to before then switched to 200ohm load at 50 db no filter and POW full of life and range and punch so a winner there!
Thought I'd seen that enclosure before.... Nice set of options, but a -3dB @ 10Hz cut is too late to do much about 8Hz-12Hz tonearm resonance that also needs effective subsonic filtering.
This is an interesting thread as I have never owned a separate phone pre-amp. I have always plugged my turntables into the phone stage of my receiver or integrated amp as I've never bought anything without a built in phono stage. Things have always sounded pretty pleasing so either I'm lucky or ignorant. And most of my most recent gear is 7-8 years old (Marantz integrateds - PM8004, PM6004, and PM5005). My main system goes through a mid-1990's Yamaha RX-V990, a 5.1 receiver that does really good 2-channel with a tone bypass filter.
I think there is more bullroar going on in the realm of phono stages, than just about any other aspect of hi-fidelity music reproduction. You can use google to find images of the inside of most any phono stage, and there you will often (not always) find little to justify extreme prices.
The most important things with any phono stage are getting the loading and gain settings right. To do that doesn't necessarily require spending a small fortune. It's also important to know the limitations of the equipment you are working with. The biggest problem with built-in phono stages that come with newer, reasonably priced integrated amps is that the capacitance is far too high to load most current production carts properly. Marantz puts 440pf into some of their integrated phonos, I often see values over 200pf on others, and Onkyo puts a whopping 1,000pf into their integrated amps. That's bad design if you know how cartridges work. In those cases the phono stage is just a cheap "throw in" the manufacturer included as a selling point because they heard vinyl was trendy again or whatever. In the case of stand alone phono stages, there are decent options starting around ~$50 that will get a cartridge loaded properly and satisfy many people. Even if you built something yourself, it's probably going to cost more than that once you factor in the cost of tools and your time. For specialized hi-fi products, the MSRP often equates to up to five times the cost to build it. There is overhead with these companies and often there are weak economies of scale if they aren't selling each item by the ship container load. Then the importer, distributor, and retailer need to make their margins. That's before we get into things like prestige pricing for certain well-known brands. This goes for any component, from speakers to amps to everything else. And yes there are some products out there that provide a poor value for what they are. I often see single components costing thousands of dollars from boutique manufacturers that appear to not be tested, or if they were, basic specifications are not provided to the prospective customer. My take is that anyone asking a lot of money for these pieces needs to stop making excuses, invest in some decent measurement equipment, and provide specs to the consumer.
Oh, I intend to. There are things it's important to be ignorant of and this level of audiophilia is one of them. If it sounds good, it is good. I remember Bill Evans saying in a documentary about him and his way with jazz that the lay person's opinion of it was just as important and meaningful as a fellow musician's who actually understood what was going on. That was an interesting thing to say as most jazzers only care what other jazzers think.
I'm glad you like it . Are you able to record two sound clips on your computer, one using the NAD preamp, and one using the Vista, but with the same settings for resistance and capacitance and then send them to me please? It shouldn't matter if you use an MM or an MC cart and a different gain setting on the Vista than on the NAD. If you use MC, then please use 100 ohm on the Vista, as that's what the NAD uses. I would appreciate it greatly if you could send me soundclips, so I can hear the differences between the two as I've never been able to hear the Vista. As I mentioned, I can also send you soundclips if I have something that you like (I have the NAD PP-4, the Mofi Studiophono and the Parasound Zphono, if any of those are of interest) . Thanks!
more bullroar than cables? did you have mr. carr for physics? bullroar was his favotite saying but seriously regardless of under hood content, the more i pay the better they sound my first $200 outboard phono pre sounded noticeably better than the included phono stage. my 699 stage sounded better than the 200 stage, the 1300 sounded much better and had the beef (power supply transformer box, etc. and my final stage (2300 retail) has the beef and sounds stupendous. some of them do not look like much but it seems you get the sound you pay for IMHE.
I wonder how much of the newer stuff with Japanese labels, is designed by the same sort of Taiwanese design houses that pretty much design all the gear for Dell, HP, etc.
I get that it is possible to spend more and get more. But based on my recent auditions, I think it is possible to pay more and get nothing for it. Even quite a bit less. I honestly haven't found anything short of stupid money that I like more than the old Realistic stage I'm using. It isn't perfect, but compared to most everything else I've heard, it is pretty darn neutral.
Probably shouldn't judge quality by the complexity of the circuit. Simple and short paths can work great.
Unless you enjoy being neurotic about tweaking stuff ,stick with whats making you happy.I owned an ayre phono section...great unit,but always wondered if i was using the best settings
I found the need to upgrade phono preamps when there was too much of a performance gap between vinyl and the sound of my digital sources. Not tonality or smoothness (which is vinyl's forte) but rather energy and dynamics. Some records sounded tired when compared to the digital sources. The better your phono preamp capabilities and settings the closer vinyl comes to achieving digital vibrancy and energy- yet still keep the sound vinyl is famous for. Unfortunately it can become costly.
