On a Mac too and many of my files have the ticks between tracks. I extracted to stereo and multi-channel with "Padding-less DSF" engaged. My current methodology is to extract to stereo and multi-channel. Then I tag them with YATE and then encode with DSD Master. I'm happy with all of this except of course for the ticks. Would extracting to ISO and then using something like TRAX to output the dsf files help cure this problem? Is there one sure-fire way to do this?
I have an Oppo 103 and a Mac. I use iso2dsd gui to extract to .DSF over my network. Next, I convert to .FLAC (24-bit/176kHz) using DSDMaster. Then I tag the files. Some rips have ticks b/w tracks while others don't. For those that do, I remove them manually using Audacity.
that's my workflow and I don't have issues with ticks in between tracks- I wouldn't be surprised if this is more about how the files are being played than how they're ripped though!
It is strange. The same files in iTunes sometimes don't have the ticks while they do in Roon. If I may also ask, what are your settings in TraX? It has a lot to choose from. What I like about DSD Master is that it can normalize an entire album, not just individual tracks, and I can't tell if TraX does track-by-track or global album normalizing.
Screen-Shot-2020-04-04-at-10-27-01-AM only things I ever change are stereo or multichannel area . . .and I play with the threading model but it just never seems to use more than 2 cores no matter what I choose there even though this is on a quad core mini i7 (so 8 logical cores) I don't normalize or do anything else to the tracks at all. just put 'em in a dsf container.
Thanks! I did some experimenting. With roon my dsf files still had the ticks. As a suggestion, I see you have "gapless" selected. I tried an album with the various options selected, and post-gap was the most faithful. When I had gapless picked, a track that should be 10:30 or so came out as 10:23. No music was lost, but the pause between it and the next track wasn't good or musical. Selecting "post gap" had the track run 10:29 and there was no tick in the resulting FLAC file. This is all so confusing.
you are doing an extra step of conversion and processing when you convert to flac and normalize so even if you're using trax, our workflows aren't the same. I'm actually kind of curious why you'd normalize. I use both roon and onkyo HF player on my iphone, none of my dsf files have tics between them when played using either of those.
Quick bit here to explain why I'm normalizing my FLAC and ALAC files. Here's the relevant part: Most DSD content is generated from a DXD master. DXD is PCM at 32bits/384kHz or 32bits/352.8kHz. This PCM signal is converted into a DSD signal via a process called Sigma-Delta Modulation. One of the design tradeoffs in Sigma-Delta modulator design is the management of mathematical instability. Sigma-Delta modulators utilize feedback (or feed-forward) loops that can become unstable if the input signal is too loud. One of the most common practical measures used to prevent instability is limiting the amplitude of the input signal. In fact, the Scarlett Book (SACD) specifications require that the input signal be limited to -6 dBFS (meaning, 6dB less dynamic range than the original signal). This has a side effect: if you were to play a CD and SACD side by side on the same transport, assuming the transport does nothing to compensate for the -6dB adjustment that happened during authoring, the SACD would come out 6dB quieter. Roon's default is to reverse that -6dB adjustment when converting DSD to PCM. This should compensate for loudness differences introduced during the authoring process, and allows DSD content to take advantage of the full dynamic range of the resulting PCM samples. This is great for all content that was properly adjusted during the authoring process. Unfortunately, there is content in the world that was not authored properly. If you hear clipping with some of your content, you may want to turn the 6dB adjustment down to 3dB or 0dB and see if it gets better.
not sure most DSD actually comes from DXD but that's neither here nor there. All the other stuff I'm aware of, and that's why I just leave the files as DSF- less manipulation = less chance for software to mess with things. Why not just stay with dsf and if you need to occasionally play the files on something that doesn't support DSD or DoP let the software convert it on the fly?
Space right now is at a premium and compatibility across devices. To play multi-channel for instance, Roon can't send it to my Oppo. The Oppo can play mutli-channel FLAC gapless though via USB, but not dsf gapless.
It's a well-established norm in SACD ripping circles to use makeup volume during conversion to PCM because of the "-6dB" issue that @Neil S. Bulk has explained above. It's of course totally cool and fine not to add any makeup volume during the conversion process and it certainly won't hurt anything (you're only giving up 1 bit of resolution if you let the peaks stay at -6dB). But it won't hurt to add it either - "software messing with things" is not an issue; all modern software can do a simple digital volume change with no audible impact on the music (other than the volume increase of course).
sure, normally you wouldn't expect any issues . . .but when someone's reporting a problem that you're not seeing and that's the only difference in the workflows . . . .
I get what you're saying, but clicks between tracks on ripped/converted SACDs is not a phenomenon that has anything to do with normalizing volume.
I have an Oppo 103, an Oppo 205 and a Mac. I use iso2dsd gui to extract to .DSF over my network with the 103. I convert the .DSF files to FLAC (24-192) using X-Lossless Decoder (XLD) and tag the FLACs with Kid3 Tag Editor. I have never heard a tick on any of the FLACs that I have created and they play fine in the gapless mode on the 205.
When I convert to pcm, I always split the tracks after I convert to pcm and have never heard a pop or click. Splitting dsd formats is asking for problems and has zero advantages.
How do you create the one long dff? I see no option in the Mac iso2 software. If you use XLD to do this is there any loss of sound quality?
The handling of ISO files after they're ripped and especially the splitting of the ISO into individual tracks are the things that make SACD ripping very confusing. Too many different projects have forked from the original SACD ripping project. All those forks trying to fix bugs or other issues. Many of those bugs and issues related to splitting the ISO into tracks. It's a case of too many cooks spoiling the broth. There are too many project trying to fix the problems. Too many SACD ripping guides trying to explain how to work around the bugs. Too many guides that are now out of date because yet another project has made a bug fix to their fork that fixes the reason for the guide. Open source software development can be a great thing. But the SACD ripping tools and the multiple forks have demonstrated how it can make for a very confusing ecosystem for both end users and developers. What a mess. So confusing. My head swims just trying to understand and follow the basics just because there are so many projects and forks and guides. An older version of sacd_extract did have bugs that would cause ticks at track changes when splitting tracks from the ISO. A later version fixed that. But there was still another bug that specifically affected DSF files when splitting tracks and that bug also cause a tick or glitch at track changes. So people wrote guides explaining how to split to DFF first and then convert the DFF to DSF. That managed to avoid the bug with converting directly to DSF, but made things more complicated. The current versions of sacd_extract have fixed that DSF bug so the guides explaining how to convert to DFF and then to DSF are no longer necessary. Yet those guides persist and people continue to insist that splitting to DFF and then converting to DSF is still necessary. It isn't necessary. The latest versions of sacd_extract and the forks have fixed that bug. I use JRiver Media Center to play DSD files. My DSD files are in DSF format. I haven't heard ticks or glitches at track changes with my gear when using sacd_extract 0.3.8 or the setmind fork from that version. That doesn't mean some people won't still have problems with ticks between tracks when playing DSD. But with my setup I haven't had problems since 0.3.8 was out. And that's been a few years now. setmind created a fork for sacd_extract GUI and created a new version of sacd_extract that has a new option for "dsf-nopad". Apparently some gear and software needs that new option to avoid glitches or ticks at track changes. My gear doesn't. My process is to rip to the ISO. The use the command line version of sacd_extract 0.3.8 to split to stereo DSF files. That works for me with my gear. I haven't noticed glitches at track changes. If I get gear that does I have saved the ISO files and will have to split them again using the "dsf-nopad" option or whatever the current best practice is.
As a card carrying computer nitwit I agree with your post in regard to seeing many different guides on how to rip SACDs. I read a few guides over the years and many seemed so confusing and differing from one to another. If it wasn't for the help and kindness of fellow member Simon A there is no way I would have ever figured it out. For someone with my lack of computer skills it's the basic language and terminology used that confuses me. For many the information that confuses me comes so easy to those with better computer skills.
Hi everyone - This is my first post in the SH Forums! I agree with the previous posts, these clicks/pops on .DSF files are very confusing and annoying. I want to share my experience ripping SACDs. - Ripping method: Oppo BDP-105D + sacd_extract 0.3.9 (SACDExtractGUI v0.1-7-g135cbd5d) Platform: macOS Catalina 10.15.4 After trying every format, setting/method on sacd_extract 0.3.9 I found that I only have ONE 100% Erro-Free option to extract the audio without any ticks. That is: DSDIFF edit master + cue file (DST decompression checked). All you need is to edit the cue file using text editor to make sure is compatible with your playback system. This method not only eliminates any ticks but ensures one has the original gain intended and avoids the extra processing that comes along when converting to a different format. Please note that I tried the DSDIFF edit master>split to .DFF files with cue>convert split .DFF files to .DSF. This method will avoid you the ticks on the resulting .DSF files but will add some loss. I know they say it's a lossless conversion but my ears totally disagree. The resulting .DSF files from this method do not sound the same as the DSDIFF edit master file – OR – the .DSF files with ticks one can extract from the ISO. Also, I found that the ticks are build into the split files at the beginning of the track. I converted the extracted .DSF files with ticks to PCM and saw the tick on the waveform at the beginning of the track. If anyone does not hear any ticks from the extracted .DSF files then the software or DAC is adding micro-seconds of silence when the track is played. I really hope someone figures out a way to extract 100% error-free individual tracks from the ISO. That way they will play nicely and "tick-free" regardless of your DAC or playback system. Hope this helps some of you, Leo PS: The reading below really helped me understand the nature of these ticks: Why during DSD playback is there a “pop” sound? (https://ifi-audio.com)
Although I have an Oppo 105D, I use a playstation3 to decrypt SACDs and I’ve never encountered a tick. And I’ve ripped hundreds of SACDs - stereo to DoP (DSD over PCM flac) when the technology first came about and then again to dsf when the capability was added to squeezeserver. I’ve have all of my multichannel SACDs ripped as well to multichannel dsf. No tick issues that I’m aware of but I can’t do gapless Mch so it’s possible there are ticks I suppose. I’m no computer whiz by any stretch but something’s not right if you’re getting clicks, not the other way around. No offense, but I have no idea what you’re doing with edit masters and cue files and the like. Just convert each track to an individual dsf file. No problem.
I haven’t had problems with clicks. I have a vague recollection that the Mac version of ISO2DSD was prone to the click problem whereas the PC one wasn’t, but I’ll have to go back and look that up. I have used both PC and Mac platforms for SACD ripping via an Oppo 103D but favoured PC as on my computer it was much faster.
