SACD vs HDCD

Here's an example of HDCD peak extension being utilized:

Green Day- Nimrod (top is decoded, bottom is not). Track is "Hitchin' A Ride". Level matched to compensate for 6dB difference in decoded HDCD signal vs undecoded).

 

You may very well be right. I've heard the Chris Isaak one before because my Parents owned it a long time ago, but that copy of The Baja Sessions is long gone. Haven't heard it decoded yet. Knowing his recordings, it probably does sound really good. I'd love to check out those Neil Young ones. I just haven't personally had any luck with the format myself..

 

The credit on the disc itself is to Kevin.

 

I mastered BILLY JOEL "52nd Street" today for Audio Fidelity Gold CD....

 

Oopsie, my bad. I've got Glass Houses!!

That was mastered by Kevin Gray!!

 

I thought you might be thinking of that one. If you think that one sounds good, I suggest checking out Steve's 52nd Street. It's superb!

 

The best HDCDs I've heard come from Neil Young.

 

+1. Of the 30-odd peak-extended HDCDs in my collection, around half are by Neil or Buffalo Springfield. They do indeed sound great once decoded. And the Joni Mitchell Reprise-era reissues are pretty good too.

Of the others I have:

- the Scott Walker 2000 remasters sound bad without decoding and merely bearable after (nice to have the dynamics restored but - not the fault of HDCD - these discs are still waaaay too bright).

- the Tom Petty Playback box sounds utterly awful without decoding but decent (if unspectacular) after.

- Lucinda Williams 'Car Wheels On a Gravel Road' (original CD) and Pernice Brothers 'The World Won't End' employ peak extend but were brickwalled before they were fed into the ADCs so decoding makes very little difference.

 

As someone said, yet, i also have more HDCD discs than SACDs and would like to get the best out of them. Todays processor/signal processor chips are so fast. I guess they could easily emulate HDCD decoding in software. They say, Microsoft is doing so within the Windows Media Player (at least to a certain degree). So why not turn the HDCD processing into an open source project.

 

Someone has done just that: bp0/libhdcd

This is what the HDCD decoder in ffmpeg uses.

 

There is a plugin for foobar2000, too, maybe the same, based on reverse engineering of wmp code, but afaik does not cover the complete standard. I'd like to see the specs disclosed, free to use, with examples etc.

 

Yep, libhdcd is based on the Foobar plugin.

AFAIK, it decodes everything there is to decode - namely, peak extend and low level range extend. As stated before, there are "transient filter" flags in the subcode on HDCD discs but - again, AFAIK - these don't require decoding.

Since it's reverse engineered, it's likely the peak extend curve that's applied is not 100% accurate but it's probably the closest we're going to get, realistically - Microsoft are not going to disclose the specs and the information in the (now lapsed) patent and various other technical documents put out by Pacific Microsonics back in the day is incomplete.

 

HDCD provides an extremely subtle improvement, and I mean a VERY minor sonic improvement , but never a degradation of any kind. SACD provides a major sonic difference, mostly good effects from higher resolution, sometimes different mastering that's not really prefetable, and sometimes also minor degradations in the natural sound of acoustic instruments and voices, due to short-cuts in most players' playback design. Its a mixed bag, but mostly positive and ALWAYS very different than the non-SACD redbook.

I think HDCD is not enough different to care about, whereas SACD is mostly very rewarding to hear the hogher resolution. The REAL question is SACD vs DVD-Audio; both are about equally major in both improvements in resolution and possible negative side-effects to individual player differences.

In my system, I am usually more impressed by DVD-Audio than SACD, by a small margain. They are both dead formats, but still squeeked out by devoted re-mastering engineers. Steve Hoffman prefers SACD... Steven Whats-his-name (of Porcupine Tree) prefers DVD-AUDIO. I collect both, and have dedicated high-end players for each.

 

It's Steven Wilson.

 

I knew it started with a W. But the two Steves were direct competitive bidders to remaster some of Ian Anderson's latest Jethro Tull tapes.

<---- Warren: a big fan of Jethro Tull, but not of Ian's decision to choose SWHN for the latest round of remasters. Warren exclaims: "come-on, Ian, you've got the money to pay for Steve's bigger reputation for remastering classic rock albums, particularly for audiophiles". Just do a search for Steve Hoffman in the Music listings on Ebay and see the collectors' prices.

So, I just thought being too obvious about also being a fan of SWHN's music and his DVD-Audio discs (not necessarily his sonic decisions in the latest JT LPs) would be less respectful to SH than pretending to forget SWHN'S name.

 

Full disclosure here, I've never really heard much difference between HDCD and standard red book.

 

I have yet to compare a decoded and undecoded HDCD (one without peak extend) since I have never had a player that decodes them.

However, I have made a list of all the HDCD AF titles and plan to listen to the ones I own over the coming weeks. Last night I played the Gary Wright AF HDCD and it sounded fantastic!

 

Gary Wright recordings always sound great; they were obviously well recorded and mastered in the first place. Same for all the Reference Recordings releases, which were HDCD, played back decoded or not.

 

I'll agree. I love SACD, like DVD-A and don't really care if it's HDCD or good old CD. I use SACD & DVD-A for 5.1 mostly.

 

There's certainly a lot of shrub rustling about HDCD. I agree with our host who has a lot of experience in using HDCD in mastering. Any that do sound good is not because HDCD was used that's for sure. As far as SACD is concerned it comes down to the mastering decisions exclusively. Hi-def will not make a bad mastering decision miraculously sound good IME.

 

Hey Dave,

My concern is not whether or not HDCD improved the sound of a given mastering. My concern is if listening to a HDCD on a regular CD player - undecoded - results in a significant decrease in sound quality. From the link you posted above, it seems it does result in a significant decrease in sound quality:

" there was a dip at around 8K that took all the snap and sparkle out of the snare and deflated the air out of the tracks. Engaging the decoding circuits and monitoring through the HDCD D to A's lent an overall 'generic' feel to the sound " - Stephen Marsh

So now I am wondering if people who have the ability to compare their HDCDs, decoded and undecoded, could please post their findings.

 

My older Oppo player has the ability to switch on and off HDCD decoding. I've only heard a difference on discs that use peak extension. The Audio Fidelity HDCD's don't use it and I personally don't hear a difference using HDCD decoding or not.

 

Thanks a lot, Ted. That's good news. I also found this on the thread Dave linked to above:

 

Microsoft & HDCD spec disclosure: Not realistic, i have to agree. But think of so many trends @ MS i never had thought would come true. Anyway, HDCD will mean nothing to them i guess. Who knows about HDCD, who does care about sound quality in our sense, etc. … on the other hand, why not set it free then …

SACD/DSD: I have ~30 SACDs (Genesis, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Friedemann), ripped the ISOs (Pioneer BDP-170) and play those via the same hifi devices as i do with any other format (Android device with UAPP player app => USB => integrated stereo amp and the amp's display says DSD64 then). To be honest, i do NOT Need DSD to enjoy high quality music. 24 bit PCM and a very well done source, that's all i need. None of those SACDs makes me freaking out compared to 24 bit PCM. They sound different, yes, but not better to me in an obvious way. It's hard to rip, hardly a tool for adapting ID info and the Discs often are damn expensive. My point of view.

 

I have a very lightly used California Audio Labs CL-15 w/HDCD in storage. I use an Oppo UDP-205 now, but perhaps I should dust it off and hear how my HDCD discs sound in comparison:
California Audio Labs CL-15 CD player Page 3