Yup. And they were often very good. I don't know what happened to Eric Burdon - he didn't make it as far as Manchester. I'd rather have had him than Greg and Neal.
You probably mentioned it the last two times you went after me in other threads, and I called you out on it. Ya know, when a person actually uses a word in his profile to describe himself, and you turn it around as an insult...it may just not stick. Could we please not turn this thread into your own personal pi**ing ground?
People seem to either love or hate Welcome and Borboletta. I think as someone else mentioned there is a lot of that hippy dippy new age vibe to it that Zappa lampooned so well which to me makes the songs on the albums feel like some therapy session. If you can tolerate the lyrics and maybe if you did not know what came before then it is possible they work as nice ambient latin soul albums. But having come to them after the first 4 albums they just don't work for me.
I love Lotus; it's a great album. So much so that I have a standard CD of it, an audio fidelity Hoffman remastered CD, and the Japanese 3 cd, with unreleased tracks, too. It's a great jam album, and I also adore Welcome, Love Devotion & Surrender, and Illuminations with Alice Coltrane. I know it's cerebral, esoteric Santana, and Carlos Santana solo, or in collaboration, but better this than Supernatural, Shaman, and Guitar Hell.
I missed this thread first time around, hence my late comments. For the record; I absolutely ADORE this period of Santana. Welcome is in my top 10 of all time. Lotus is not far behind. I see what the original poster meant; Lotus has an experimental and intense jazz-rock edge which isn't as permanently on display on neither Welcome nor Borboletta. But it is in there, just leveled with some softer tracks. As for Mook's comments, I usually tend to agree with him, but this time I don't. To my ears there is a fine, fine edge between drippy and preachy spirituality and the type that Santana does on Welcome. It might be just a very personal experience with the album (my first time hearing it is etched into my mind - the mood, the time of year, the weather, everything), but to my ears it is the best album Santana ever did. Every song is a gem. The band is in the zone and it really sounds as if everyone is divinely inspired. Maybe the singing itself is occasionally not top notch per se (can't fault Leon Thomas though), but it really works for the music. The range of styles is breathtaking, not one song sounds like the other, and it has a McLaughlin/Santana meltdown meeting. What's not to love. Borboletta I regard as a notch down. The band was starting to fall apart, and this is the album where there are many different lineups playing (Welcome is fairly consistent at least in its core band). And this is the album where the spiritual lyrics start to sound preachy and drippy IMHO. It's a subtle, but very palpably different mood and feeling. Maybe it's as simple as Leon Thomas vs Leon Patillo, but the songwriting itself is also not on par with Welcome. Lastly, don't get me started on Zappa, it won't be pretty. I've tried and I've tried, but I find virtually nothing to like. Self-conscious and self-righteous fun-making of other artist...no thanks, I'll pass.
I understand why some people dislike Welcome and Borboletta but I don't care. Their music is too pleasant for me to take those things seriously.
Wow I didn't know there was a complete edition! Pity it is now £70....can't find it to download on Itunes either
While I enjoy Welcome, I think Carlos backed off bit too much though his guitar parts are excellent. Borboletta, IMO, remains a pinnacle of achievement. Excellent compositions flawlessly merging jazz and rock together. Promise of a Fisherman is a guitar tour de force. Never liked Alex. Greg Walker was a great vocalist-up there with Rolie. I remember one show with both Greg and Alex. Greg sang him off the stage.
Remember Jerry Fisher, the guy who took over for David-Clayton Thomas for a few BS&T albums in the '70s? Fierce yet controlled. I hear that quality of night-and-day difference in Ligertwood. More rock than blues. By the way, drifting back to Lotus for the nonce..has anybody tried a little re-processing at home on any of the quad releases, to bring out a little more presence in the rears? For that matter, anybody experimented with OOPS-style processing to isolate any of the front soundstage, that could be diverted into the center or rear channels of a 5.1 mix? I'd like to try that.
Walker is a good r&b singer, Ligertwood is a good AOR singer, at least in terms of how they sounded in Santana.
One album fans of Carlos' jazzier side should check out is trumpeter Luis Gasca's album For Those Who Chant which features most of the Caravanserai line up. It was recorded August 17 & 18, 1971 and Caravanserai was recorded February 21–May 5, 1972. It definitely feels like an influence on Caravanserai and the vibes of the later Illuminations. Carlos and Neal are happy to take more of a back seat with Carlos only really stepping out on the third track and Neal on the last tune. They both sound like they are feeling their way into this new music but the rest of the band and Gasca's tunes are awesome, plus Stanley Clarke on bass! A lot of it sounds like a Latin version of Bitches Brew. Bass – Stanley Clark Congas – Mike Carabello*, Victor Pantoja Drums – Lenny White, Mike Shrieve Flute – Hadley Caliman Guitar – Carlos Santana, Neal Schon Organ – Richard Kermode Percussion – Garnette Mims Joan MacGregor, Rico Reyes, Snooky Flowers Piano, Electric Piano – George Cables, Greg Rolie*, Mark Levine Tenor Saxophone – Joe Henderson Timbales – Carmelo Garcia, Coke Escovedo Trumpet, Flugelhorn – Luis Gasca Vibraphone [Vibes] – José "Chepito" Areas Cosmic Dog – Moon
This was also a huge influence on Caravanserai. Any similarity with "Eternal Caravan Of Reincarnation" is no coincidence.
Lotus is one of my favorite live albums of all times, easily top 10 stuff. I bought the 3-cd version not so long ago, and that was a mistake. This is a clear case where you can hear the reasons why those "new" track were not on the original album. I mean they are absolutely horrible! Do you remember the sort of diddly-widdly scat singing Chris Farlowe use to do on Colosseum Live? Well, those unreleased tracks on Lotus are basically Leon Thomas trying to do some kind of lame imitation of Chris, only failing miserably, under heaven-knows what chemical influence. Definitely waste of your money. I put the 3-cd version on the shelf and never listened to it again. All you need is on the original.
To me it's one of his finest albums. I have two versions: the 3 lp's release and the complete edition on 3 hybrid SACD. This last one showcases finally Thomas' great vocal skills (Um Um Um is fantastic for example). On the original release Thomas sings too much little and it's a pity.
The finest thing about music is that we all have different tastes And on these forums we can talk about it, and feel free to disagree. Cheers to that!
I admit to have a thing for Thomas. I have two his cd's: an anthology released by Soul Jazz of the Flying Dutchman period and an album recorded live in Italy with Freddie Hubbard and his combo featuring Hadley Caliman, Billy Childs, Larry Klein and Carl Burnett entitled A Piece of Cake. Leon Thomas Starring Freddie Hubbard - A Piece Of Cake
On Italian forums, unfortunately it doesn't always happen. I do not know the reason. I have been banned because I had written that some Genesis albums were fairly good not excellent or terrific and that their (good) music was not classical music but progressive rock. A guy, administrator of the forum told me that his famous (?) piano teacher considered them classical musicians and so on insulting me on my personal e-mail outside PM. Obviously I had a backlash and you can guess the end... Bad memories and mostly bad people!
