Shaking sound with my 78rpm recording

Hi,

I've been recording hundreds of 78 shellacs using the same turntable, cartridge and stylus, only replacing when I feel it's worn. Everything was fine but these days the sound in my recording became choppy, and I could hear the shaking sound from my stylus when it's playing the loud part. So I guessed that the stylus was worn again, and everything was fined when I replaced it with a new one. This time, however, the same problems happens again after I played with this new stylus for only about 60 minutes. Now I fear that I've doing something very wrong. I'm uploading the same song that I recorded, a normal one when the stylus was new, and a bad one that I just recorded. The vocal part is the worst. Has this happened to anyone of you? Is this stylus worn at all?

Dropbox - recording - Simplify your life

I'm using Audio Technica LP1240 turntable, VM670SP cartridge, VMN70SP stylus, and ZeroDust to clean the stylus.

 

I forgot to mention that once the recording starts to sound like shaking, it will sound like this no matter what record I play. My tracking weight is 5g. Antiskate is 0. Cartridge is aligned.

 

You need to tell us the rest of your recording chain. My guess is it's not the turntable nor stylus/cartridge, but somewhere else in the chain.

 

Windy day? Train tracks nearby? Earthquake zone (lol)? Seriously, how well is the deck isolated from external vibrations? Can't help you much, otherwise.

Nice recordings, BTW. I've done a few 78 needledrops myself.

 

I clean the records using SpinClean and dry them with the wipes provided. The I air dry for about 30 minutes before recording them. The turntable is in my basement. I don't think any outside noise can introduce vibration to the stylus as I live in a quiet neighborhood. The turntable is on a desk and I used ruler to make sure it's even. The record is spinning on a Hudson HiFi rubber mat, recorded with a preamp using Acrobat Audition.

I think the problem is either the stylus or the record. If I use a new stylus, the problem is gone, but it comes back again after playing maybe 10 records.

 

I agree...it could be the stylus suspension or the record, or a combination of both. Once the suspension is set into motion, something is keeping it in motion.

Maybe rotate the record on the platter 1/2 rotation. Maybe record at 45rpm, correcting it in software afterwards. Or invent some means of damping the arm motion. Anything to upset resonance.

 

You might have damaged the records, I don't think old 78's like liquids, I would not clean them that way.

 

I think I fixed the problem thanks to Ripblade mentioning the suspension. I reduced the tracking force to 4g and suddenly it sounds normal. I find that in 5g, the cantilever is so bent that the cartridge itself is almost touching the spinning record, so I guess the air between the cartridge and the record is making the cartridge to tremble and thus the wobbling sound. I guess I played some wrapped records that made the cantilever weak, however 5g is recommended by Audio Technica, and my records are mostly described as "excellent" in auctions. I tried to play at 2g and it still sounded fine.

I set the tracking force using both the tonearm dial and the electronic scale, so it shouldn't be wrong. Now I wonder if such a weak cantilever is a design flaw, or 5g should not have been specified. After all, this stylus is only 60 minutes old.

 

Hmm... didn't notice it the first time around, but yes, 5g seems a bit heavy in this day and age. 3g seems more reasonable, unless it's for vintage Bakelite arms.

 

AT's manual for this specific stylus says 4.5-5.5g...

 

Arnt you supposed to replace the stylus every record for the old 78s?

 

I resharpen them after 4 or 5 plays. Sewing needles also make nice soft playback.

 

That's only true for steel needle I think.

 

It will work out to be expensive at nearly 90 a pop for each VMN70SP but it's the best way to do it.

 

Might be micro warps on the record, which is inducing this problem. It's especially acute at 2 grams and under tracking forces, and on lowish mass tonearms.

 

Yes, that's why I suggested rotating the record, as these, along with the microwarps in the platter, can reinforce or null each other depending on how they're stacked up.

I do think the high VTF is the actual cause of the shaking; 5gm is an awful lot for a modern tonearm. The cartridge suspension is being overwhelmed.

 

Yes, thought so.

 

Why antiscate 0? Do the physical laws disappear at 78 rpm?

 

I think you've arrived at what is going on. The cartridge suspension is being overwhelmed, and a compliance/tracking force mismatch causing this shaking sound due to the microwarps.

 

To me, 5g is way too much eventhough it is within the cartridges specs. Myself, I mostly use a Shure M78S for 78s or a Pickering NP/AC, with appropriate stylus. Because of the faster speed, there is greater inertia trying to pull the stylus towards the spindle, so I make sure that I have sufficient anti-skate and I lift the stylus before it gets into the eccentric trail-out groove. The back and forth movement is not good for the stylus. I have been using one of my AT-LP120's for recording. The one thing you have to realize is that the motors of the AT direct drive turntables and others are made up of multiple segments and pulse as they turn the platters. The flywheel affect helps to smooth it out and the turntable mat also helps to absorb the pulses. I use cork/rubber mats. The higher the tracking weight the more there is a chance that the pulses will be picked up by the cartridge. You might have noticed that on initial start-up the TT does a bump-bump-bump until it gets up to speed. If you create friction on the TT you will again get the bumping. A belt-driven TT is much smoother.
Also, NEVER ever use a cleaning solution on a 78 which contains ALCOHOL, if they are pre-vinyl or pre-styrene. Alcohol on a shellac 78 dissolves and flattens the grooves, as well as the record labels. Many commercial cleaning solution contain alcohol and often say on them if they are safe for 78s. I have used solutions from Vinyl Solutions and Phoenix on 78s without a problem. For really grimy records, a small bowl of warm water with a couple of drops of Dawn dishwashing detergent. If you are going to air-dry, add a couple of drops of Kodak Photo Flow to the rinse water.
As far as reducing surface noise and other detriments to sound, an equalizer program is helpful. I use one from DAK, as is my recording program. I save the recordings as wav files which sound much better than mp3's. Observing the recording on an equalizer graph, you will notice that an old 78 has a fairly narrow frequency range. The rumble, or wobble, is very low frequency so I start cutting the lower frequencies and that does a fairly good job of removing that annoying noise. This also works on the latest records too. The lathes used to cut the lacquer masters are decades old and put rumble into the records. There is also annoying surface noise at the upper end of the frequency range on 78s. I sometimes tailor the upper frequencies.

 

Wow RECORDING??

THATS AWESOME..... I hope you can get it fixed straight away!!

WOW

 

Microwrap is the word I'm looking for. Thanks!

It's strange that my first AT stylus didn't have this problem even though I've always used the same set up and played the same kind of records, mostly 20s and 30s electrical Victor and Columbia.

 

I mean transferring Sorry for my bad English as it's not my mother tongue.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience with playing 78. I've never thought about antiskating because it seems that there's no consensus on antiskate setup for 78. I only use antiskate when the record is so wrapped that the intro grove is skipped. It happens to some of my Durium records. I know it's bad for the stylus so I use separate stylus just to play these dirty cardboards (they can't be cleaned I assume).

Another thing that I'm curious is the EQ curve. My amplifier has a default Phono mode so I don't adjust the EQ unless it sounds weird (actually just once when I played a Silvertone record), but I do want to know how to apply standard curve if I record in Line mode. As I'm using Adobe Audition, can I download and import the standard curve to the software, or is there another software that I can use for this purpose?

 

The free program Audacity has an extensive list of EQ curves and plugins and/or descriptions for each one.
Playback equalization for 78 rpm shellacs and early 33⅓ LPs - Audacity Wiki

Audacity is free, so it has become a kind of standard for all the various EQ curves, since anyone can create a curve and submit it and anyone can obtain the program and the EQ plugins, free.

Basically, to use, record your normal way including RIAA, then remove the RIAA (invert the RIAA EQ and apply that to the file) then apply a more proper curve for the specific disc.