Something Wrong: Rega Brio and Klipsch R-15M

I have a Schiit Gungnir Multibit:
Specs say: Maximum Output: 2.0V RMS (single-ended)

Bifrost says: Maximum Output: 2.0V RMS single-ended

 

Believe or not you're still getting distortion apparently,if I can find my sources I'll post on this or start a new thread.

I'm at about 650-700mv(inputs)& I can get to 11-11:30 "maybe" 12 on quite recordings before distortion kicks in.
Sometimes as owners we can't or don't want to hear distortion,some people think "Oh that's the way it's supposed to sound"! I
know my Tannoy at about £650 are NOT going to have boxes & feet that can handle party level db's. From the top of my head I think that's why manufacturers haven't changed the standard from "back in the day" before digital outputs,I could he wrong though.

-evo777

 

Rega's DAC says --- 2.175V max output.

It does sound like input clipping, but I have to think that the Brio was designed to be used with the Rega DAC.

 

It would be the KEF 150 because of size: I can't use a 14.5" tall speaker on my desk, and in my environment a 5" bass is fine.

 

Here's one source:Russ Andrews - Hi-Fi mains and cable specialist .

-evo777

 

I rarely crank my volume above 11 o'clock because much higher than that and it is simply too loud for me to comfortably listen to. And yes, I am aware that all equipment will eventually distort - first inaudibly to the average person, then audibly when pushed hard. In my case there is only so much a 45wpc integrated and 6.5'' woofer bookshelf speakers can handle. Thankfully it does not audibly distort at my preferred listening volume.

 

Yeah...it wouldn't make sense that a Rega DAC would cause distortion at low volume levels paired with their own Rega amp. Something is missing in this analysis.

 

In theory, it wouldn't, but you never know since their products are full of quirks and odd "features".

 

EXACTLY.
You know but many of us don't & when we run into situations like on this thread & get help,it can cause owners other problems.

-evo777

 

@Rattlin' Bones , here is a brief technical review from Audioholics of your speakers with some discussion. Perhaps take your issue there, see what they have to say for your situation:

Klipsch R-15m Review w/Measurements.

Another site, ASR, also measured two other types of recent-ish Klipsch speakers, perhaps similar but a bit different to yours. Perhaps they might have some insight for you as well:

Klipsch R-41M Bookshelf Speaker Review

Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review

I would try posting at both places, list out all equipment and try to describe the problem as specifically as possible. Perhaps you can get some insight...just a thought.

 

I gotta think something is wrong with the analysis of DAC output vs amp input. The $2,4999 Schiit DAC puts out Maximum Output: 4.0V RMS (balanced), 2.0V RMS (single-ended). I don't think you can find a DAC output in MV's. There would seem to be an issue with most every integrated amp if this were the case? What are we missing here?

 

They did same thing through Peachtree 655SE and NAD CD deck. I gotta look up those specs. On my old speaker nada no problem on that system.

 

In the Audioholics link there is specific discussion of the distortion specs and measurements of your Klipsch speakers. I cannot say for sure what the specific problem is, which is why I would suggest going there and see if they can provide insight.

 

Input sensitivity and max input are two different things. Problem is, amp manufacturers rarely list both specs in a clear way for the layman. You might contact Rega and find out what the max input for the amp is, so maybe we can rule out the amp as a potential issue.

To quote paraphrase from an older discussion on this topic, an integrated might have a spec that says the following:

“input sensitivity of 250mV with more than 20db headroom”.

That might equate to roughly 3V max input on the amp.

More on sensitivity here:

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/150-sensitivity.html

 

I think you nailed it. The article stated:

"All Compact Disc players produce 2V output maximum, because that’s the standard set for it. Successors such as DVD and Blu-ray also produce 2V. Amplifiers purposed for these sources typically have an input sensitivity of 400mV on all line inputs, such as Tuner, CD, Aux, Tape (this does not include a Phono input if fitted). It’s just enough to cope with tuners and such like having 500mV output, but not so high as to limit the useful travel and therefore resolution of the volume control. However, sensitivity is rising to cope with legacy sources such as old tuners and cassette decks, that deliver 100mV-300mV, and especially external phono stages that may barely produce 100mV out. Naim amplifiers use a buffer input stage before the volume control and have an input sensitivity as high as 90mV."

"A broadly useful input sensitivity is 200mV. It will cope with most sources. A lower value of 400mV suits silver disc players and modern tuners that typically give 1V output. It is too low for many external phono stages however. An input sensitivity of 90mV such as that of Naim amplifiers is very high, meaning volume will have to be kept low from CD."

Knowing this, the Schiit DAC and Rega amp should have no compatibility issues and would not be source of the problems I am experiencing.

 

Well, we don't know for certain until we have the max input spec of your amp.

It is also possible that the speakers are just crap and distort at a low threshold.

 

But sounds like I really should not worry about it for a high level amp like Rega it's like something never to worry about: standard DAC's outputs are 2v and standard amp inputs are 200mV. Ain't a problem there.

 

If it were me I would ask and try to find out the max input spec...that's just me. I never assume something is good, especially when certain specs are left out or the piece of gear has not be subjected to rigorous objective testing.

 

Look I'm not technically minded one single bit I'll put my hands to that,but that information you posted seems to validate what I was stating about input overload. If anyone has a amp with ONLY one input value,but has sources of "different input values"(200mv,500mv,2.0. from your link)wouldn't you also say/think that you'll get distortion on one of the inputs sources?

I'm not doubting yours or anyone elses knowledge what so ever,but I know when I hear distortion on a system because it's not comfortable to listen to.
One more important point(or maybe not, I'm sure people on here will correct me)when a amps volume pot is measured,the measurements are taken from 0 to max(volume adjuster can't go any further)or maximum distortion, wherever that is on the volume pot/control.

-evo777

 

I'm guessing Rega has put their Brio through more than it's fair share of rigorous objective testing, as have other folks, and that amp would not have such a fatal design flaw. Just guessin'

 

This is the point I was trying to make to you.
Basically if you want to use more of the volume pot, you have to use attention somewhere between the output & the input but this IS easily done,I don't really understand why this is running & running. The way I see HiFi is like this, if I've got a "issue" & I find possible answers or solutions that don't cost the earth or seem to make some sort of sense, I'll give them a go especially when it's easy to reverse the difference.
I'll be absolutely AMAZED if there's any owners who can use the full spectrum/distance/travel of their volume control....... without distortion before all the post of "I can on mine bla bla" come flooding in.

-evo777

 

I looked up the Rega Brio just now - should've done that before. I wrongly assumed that OP did, dunno which version they have but this is the 2017+ version.

http://www.rega.co.uk/brio-2017.html

Input 2-5 (line) input sensitivity = 210mV at 47kΩ
Maximum input 2-5 (line) input level = 10.25V

If the max input is correct, I doubt input sources overloading are the problem. I'd put my money on the speakers or something else.

Stereophile did some measurements here:

Rega Research Brio integrated amplifier Measurements

Now, Stereophile does say the amp runs hot and the following:

Restricting the measurement bandwidth to 22Hz–22kHz increased the ratio to 69.35dB, while switching an A-weighting filter into circuit resulted in further improvement, to 72.2dB

Let's just say those aren't state of the art numbers for a solid state integrated amp. Not the worst I've seen by a longshot though. Possibly fine for many people...depending on what you think is important.

 

I still say input output mis-match but we all go with what we're comfortable with.
I've a pair of -10db attention RCA plugs, I'm 100% confident that if the OP was to use these that he would get less distortion at the point that he's currently getting.... probably 10db less!
Like I said we're all different so whatever the OP choose to do, I just personally hope he gets it sorted to a level that is satisfactory for him.

-evo777

 

What I am saying is that if we take the max output spec of the DAC and the max input spec of the integrated's line input, the mismatch you are thinking of seems very, very unlikely.

FWIW I did try some attenuator plugs at one point and hated them. Ended up sending them back. Many people use them happily though. I'm happy with the way my system works without them. I do hope OP solves the issue, whatever the specific problem might be.

 

No no I get that honestly,some user's have stated that they "soften the sound",which could be said to be true.

Let's hope this thread with all our experience/opinions/views & situations helps the OP like you stated.

There are probably a myriad of things the manufacturers could easily & cheaply do to make life easier for the end user.
Look at the turntable I choose to use,they insist on NOT building VTA adjustment on their arms as to encourage owners to stay with their own carts,great for them,not so much for the end user, business is business though lol.

-evo777