Speaker measurements can't tell you how the speaker will interact with your specific listening space. What you hear will be a combination of your ear characteristics, the acoustics of the room your are listening in, the speakers and their positions and the air quality. So you won't know how they sound until you have listened at home.
I think it's probably incorrect to associate the words natural or realistic with any type of recording or home stereo playback. I don't hear things like mechanical noise, pitch instability, inner groove distortion, tube amp distortion, distortions of recording microphones, plus all sorts added effects when I go to listen to a live orchestra performance. I do however think there is clear way now to get closer to hearing whats on the actual recording without all the associated drawbacks of traditional equipment and older media formats getting in the way. Everyone is free to decide which is the best approach.
The premise that I took from the title of this thread was that they won't find them because they don't exist. My point was that they do exist, but most audiophiles don't have the knowledge to take what is already there in measurements and correlate them to their subjective impressions. So they won't 'find them in measurements'. But I think you already knew that.
That just proves the best engineers are ones which are also musically trained, have a good ear, and good logic abilities. I know LOTS of engineers who have blinders to anything which cannot be formulated. Talking to them is like talking to a machine. I wouldn't, and don't, trust them to design themselves out of a paper bag. On the other hand, I wouldn't trust a musician with absolutely no engineering chops to design anything either. You know of course that half of all doctors are 'below average'?
Acceleration (an adequate motor on the drivers) in conjunction with good high frequency extension. Low damping factor on the amplifier can make a speaker seem 'slow' since this will smear transients. A speaker which presents a difficult load is more likely to demand a partnering amp with exceptional damping factor. Impulse response is a key measurement here. Also, looking at the speaker's reproduction of square waves since these show all of these parameters at once.
Make 2 sounds with a known time frame between them, play it back and measure how fast the woofers respond?
I glean you. Everything is just a number. And we have all the numbers. We are just too stupid to know how to read them. So we are doomed by our stupidity to never understand audio like you do. So no need to listen to the gear anymore or study the forum. Thanks. Got it.
I want to audio stores. Tried out approximately 20-25 different speakers. One set knocked me off my feet. I don't why, they just did. They sounded even better at home. Martin Logan Summit Xs.
Since there's never a one to one correlation of measurements to whether I end up liking a speaker, I treat the two areas (listening to them versus reading measurements / specs) as two independent events, and don't let one sway or bias the other. When I listen to a speaker, I try to focus on only that (*listening*) and not let measurements, price, or other factors affect my observations. Mainly because how they sound is typically my top criteria, and many times belied what certain measurements seemed to suggest. But not always... there are times in more extreme cases where a void / gap in said measurements was evident and a showstopper, but it's more the exception than the rule. Being an engineer by education / trade, of course I'm a data guy too and don't ignore measurements or specs, I eat 'em up, and more for speakers than other components........ but they don't tell the whole story and for me listening is the major deciding factor. So much can be impacted by synergy of other components, my preferred sound profile, etc can have a larger impact than the measurements too.
Not 'too stupid', but reading and interpretating engineering test data is simply not in their skill set. Hell, dentistry is not in my skill set, but I wouldn't call myself 'stupid' for that. It is becoming more obvious you are more interested in being a troll than engaging in any sort of intelligent back-and-forth about the subject. As such, you have earned an Ignore. So richly deserved too.
Having just returned from a dental appt, where I was told I need a root canal in #16 (upper left wisdom) because of "irreversible pulpitis" -- I hate that analogy.
I don't believe that end user audiophiles should read the measurements at all, and that companies shouldn't necessarily publish them since to do so in a comprehensive way would involve far more data than typically presented, like a full Klippel suite. But for the speaker designers, measurements along the way are vital, if for nothing more than a reality check.
I dearly hope your dentist is not in the lower half of the rankings of competency. You might seek out some dentist forums for a reliable diagnosis.
I can see and understand that point of view. Makes sense for a lot of reasons, including your point earlier that many don't really understand them anyway... coupled with the fact that not all manufacturers are giving "accurate" specs in all areas too though. And compounded by the fact things like 800 damping factors and .0000001% THD aren't really that critical in what you're going to hear anyway... Ignorance, manufacturer marketing to one-up the competitor, inaccurate or obscured measurements, and other reasons mean that measurements and specs aren't always a good thing.
There's actually a good story behind that and what happened, but don't want to sidetrack the thread. Maybe over a beer some day...
Says the guys who is crapping on the thread. In case you didn't notice the thread assumes there are things measurements don't tell you and asked what they are. Your response is that the thread is WRONG. Everything is already clear from specs. We ignoramuses are just too stupid to read them correctly! So you are a thread crapper, sir. Don't lecture me about being a troll... If you don't agree with the thread position go start a thread about how you are able using only numbers to build and design the best speaker in the world and then show it to us all. That I would LOVE to see. Seriously! And remember. Don't LISTEN to it. Just use numbers. Ha!
