I'll never understand the Katy Lied with there being the Steve Hoffman version or Nichols, I have the 18P2-2694, 37043 CRC, 37043 Japan for USA and the 80s plaid-back 31194 spine with 37043 in the matrix. I like how they all sound, however
The only difference between the EAC peaks for mastering 6 and 7 (supposed SH mastering) of Aja is the 86,2 vs. 86,1 peaks for I Got the News. Looking closer at rips of both CD:s with the "bit-compare tracks" tool in Foobar reveals that the track lengths are slightly different between the discs, but after the tool crudely compensates for the length mismatch all tracks seem to be more or less digitally identical. For example Deacon Blues (file 1 is mastering 7 and file 2 is mastering 6): File #1 peaks: 0.908478 (-0.83 dBTP) 0.875854 (-1.15 dBTP) File #2 peaks: 0.908478 (-0.83 dBTP) 0.875854 (-1.15 dBTP) Peg: File #1 peaks: 0.889557 (-1.02 dBTP) 0.885773 (-1.05 dBTP) File #2 peaks: 0.889557 (-1.02 dBTP) 0.885742 (-1.05 dBTP) Aja (the song): File #1 peaks: 0.917328 (-0.75 dBTP) 0.907501 (-0.84 dBTP) File #2 peaks: 0.917297 (-0.75 dBTP) 0.907501 (-0.84 dBTP) Etc. Leading me to the conclusion that at least mastering 6 & 7 are the same, but with different layouts of the discs in the TOC:s. Too digitally similar to be a coincidence imo.
In my opinion he wanted to use the (old) analogue two track master tapes, but in the end he used the digital tapes because they sounded much better than anything they could have achieved by using the analogue tapes.
Unfortunately - no - that's not what he meant. He still used the analog tapes - he just preferred the '88 originals. Remember - they didn't archive to a normal digital format in 1981 - they used a proprietary 3M digital system prior to the invention of CD. From: Metal Leg 18 – October 1991 When digital first came in, there were many formats being kicked around,” McKaie tells ICE. “One of them was these oversized Scotch reels, digitally encoded analogs. That’s what Steely Dan chose. Realizing their analog masters were deteriorating, they went in and remastered all the albums on these oversized, heavy-duty reels. When it came time to do the CDs, they said ‘Use those,’ so on the first go-around, they (MCA employees) did. Unfortunately, the oversized reels was one of the formats that lost. So when they did the second go-around of CDs, the studio (engineers) didn’t have access to those machines: there are only a couple of places that do. So, having the original analog tapes, they probably just did what they thought was right and used those. Unfortunately, those original analogs don’t sound as good as the digital transfers that the group did on the oversized Scotch reels, because Steely Dan had really worked on them to get them right.” “Hence, the second CDs don’t sound as good as the first, albeit they don’t sound bad, and I’ve never had any complaints. They sound as good as the average, straight reissue CD out there today. So you’re dealing with, ‘Yes, they could sound better, but they sound fine.’ It’s unfortunate, and I feel bad about it, but it’s not the same as when we did Elton John’s 11-17-70 where half the CD was taken from a third generation source. We’re probably going to stop all our (production) orders, remaster them all at once, sell off what we have in the marketplace and then go right into production of the new ones. We’ll definitely upgrade them and put a little sticker on them so that you know they’re upgraded.” If you listen to them closely - you can tell they're new transfers. There's a lot of glitches on the 81's - we've come to love them - but they're there. These aren't present on the 2000's - and it's not a matter of a simple cleanup. The samples don't time align either between the '88s, '93s and '99s. Cheers, Paul
A little more about the 1999 remasters: Roger Nichols made the 1999 remasters from copies of the original stereo analog masters. He copied each original master when it was new, and stored the copies in his personal archive, maintained them properly, and never used them (except Aja's, which he used once). He digitized them in 1998 with his Apogee AD-8000 24-bit ADC (S/N 1), and I assume that he used an Apogee UV-22 CD-encoder to convert the 24-bit master into a 16-bit master that sounds like it has the dynamic range of a 20-bit master. The 1999 CD-remasters for Thrill, Katy Scam, Aja, and Gaucho sound great (Aja is essentially perfect, for a CD). I have yet to hear Countdown or Pretzel, but I assume they're good. I'm looking for an independent source for this reference - so far, although it shows up in Amazon, Discogs and a couple other places, they're all from the same author. (e.g. Look in the comments for In Which The Author Receives Charity From Friends And Destroys A Rare Vinyl Record - Riverside Green ) Cheers, Paul
Okay - my sleuthing has paid off - kinda. Bear with me - this is tricky. A lot of Roger's posts have been lost - but the Wayback Machine has archived some of them. I found this on the original Digital Atomics website: Archive Information Of interest is this section: Digital Tape Facts: Many companies transferred their catalogs of analog tapes to digital many years ago. I transferred the Steely Dan analog masters to 3M digital format in 1981. By transferring the tapes early in the "digital age", any further analog deterioration was halted. More recently the early 3M tapes were transferred to CD. The 3M tapes were marginal in their ability to play back correctly and finding a machine to play them back was a task in itself. Because the data was digital, it was possible to recover the albums completely with no further degradation during the additional 14 years of storage. So - what does this mean? It means that the CDs mastered post-1995 (i.e. 1981 + 14) were sourced from the 3M master reels, according to Roger. This kind of lines up with the 1999/2000 remaster series - and also the credit on the discs for Digital Atomics. The Citizen Steely Dan box was released in 1993, so I don't think it uses them. However - the weird part is - we've seen that some of the 1999/2000 discs are pretty similar to the Citizen Steely Dan masters. The truth may be that the 2000 remasters are from a mix of sources - whatever sounds best. I'm still hoping to find a definitive source - but the internet waters are murky at best. Cheers, Paul
There's also Glenn Meadows' recollections - excerpted from The Best Version Of… Steely Dan’s Aja for illustrative purposes only: The story actually starts at the original transfer of the analog masters to CD. At that time, the CD masters were initially prepped/mastered by Bob Ludwig at Masterdisk in NYC. Many days were spent matching master tapes to different brand analog ¼” machines to get the best transfer possible One album (don’t know which), was missing the alignment tones, and took quite some time to get the playback EQ and level properly matched to the noise reduction used on the master tape. It was also realized at that point, that the analog tapes were in VERY poor condition due to continuous use for cutting master lacquers to keep pressing records. At the end of the mastering, it was also decided to do a 1 pass FLAT transfer of the analog masters (after each album was mastered for CD), would be made to the 3M 4Track digital recorders. This was in the VERY early days of Digital recording. The masters that were created for CD were done with the Sony PCM 1600 system. 1 master tape of each album was created, and MCA delivered those to the CD plant in Japan. So - this has been a point of confusion in various online places. But - what we have for the 1988 CDs is a transfer from the analog masters to Sony PCM 1600 for CD mastering and also a corresponding set of 3M flat digital safeties. Two digital editions, both source from the master tapes. One set - Sony PCM 1600 EQ'd for CD - and one set - 3M safeties - left flat. Glenn continues: a request for a new set of CD masters was sent to the MCA studios. Not realizing that there were NO copies of the Ludwig created masters in their files, the studios pulled the 15IPS Dolby EQ tape copies, and transferred THOSE tapes to the Sony digital tapes, and sent those to the US plant(s) for replication. MCA decided to add 4 cuts to the then 8 cut Steely Dan Gold CD. Roger asked for the master tapes be sent to Nashville so that he and I could master the 4 additional cuts and create new CD masters. When the tapes arrived, they were a stack of ¼” analog Dolby copies (see above), as well as the 1 1630 master that was the 8 cut Solid Gold album. Roger realized that they had sent the wrong original album masters had been sent. He made some phone calls, and told the MCA vault that they needed to find Sony Digital masters made at Masterdisk, and that they were the correct CD master source tapes. What he subsequently found out, was that the wrong tapes had been used YEARS earlier when production switched to the US. Okay - that clears up some of it. Roger was able to locate the FLAT 3m 4 track masters that were recorded when the fist mastering was done for CD release. Those were sent to me in Nashville, were there is/was still a working set of 3M digital recorders. It was at that point that the re-mastering that later became the box set occurred. All 7 of the CD’s were remastered at that time to update ALL CD releases. Transfers were made from the 3M system for mastering. The oldest albums were of course in the worst shape at the time of the analog transfers. There's a problem with this recollection though. There is no 8 cut Gold CD. The only CD version is the expanded edition. So - what is the 1630 master Glenn is talking about? Maybe a work in progress by MCA? Anyway - that recollection aside - it seems that we have this: 1988 CDs cut from Sony PCM 1600 tapes created from the original master tapes, mastered by Roger Nichols and Steve Hoffman, possibly with involvement by Bob Ludwig. 3M flat digital safety copies also made at this time. 1988-1993 - some indeterminate CDs cut from analog tapes by unknown persons. (e.g. possibly Mastering 4 of Aja) There's not a lot of these, though - EAC has shown this. 1993 Citizen Steely Dan made from 3M Digital safeties, mastered by Glenn Meadows with different EQ and EAC peak levels. (Based on comments by Glenn) 1999 Remasters made from 3M Digital safeties, mastered by Roger Nichols at Digital Atomics with different EQ and EAC peak levels. (Based on comments by Roger) This actually makes some sense. For example - there's the timing of tracks on Gaucho: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: Gaucho MCA US 198? 37220 DIDX 56: 5:43.5 (Mastering 3) MCA EU 1993 Citizen boxed set MCAD4-10981: 5:41.1 (Mastering 4) MCA EU 2000 remaster 112 055-2: 5:41.1 (Mastering 1) If they were from separate transfers - we'd expect the timing to be different. Instead - it does look like the base tape for the 1993 and 2000 remaster are from the same sources. Anyway - this is what I know. Cheers, Paul
According to the following article the 3M digital tapes had been used for the Steely Dan CDs at some time: The Best Version Of… Steely Dan’s Aja (audiophilestyle.com) Some quotes: "In either 1981 or 1982, Nichols transferred all of the Steely Dan master tapes to Scotch 3M digital tape using a Sony PCM 1600 system ... . When Nichols mastered the first run of Steely Dan CDs, including Aja, he used the digital tapes he’d prepared a few years earlier. In 1993, Steely Dan released the Citizen Steely Dan box set, which featured new masterings of the band’s entire catalog by Glenn Meadows. Meadows’s remasters were sourced from Nichols’s 1982 digital tapes. Ever frustrated with how the Steely Dan catalog sounded on CD, Nichols began remastering the entire catalog yet again in the late-1990s with the intention of creating the “definitive” Steely Dan CD releases. These CDs were once again sourced from his 1982 digital transfers."
This is not exactly true. The 1988 CDs are apparently from a separate analog transfer - direct to PCM 1600 with EQ applied. There is no "Scotch 3M using a Sony PCM 1600 system" - they're two different recording systems. The transfer to the Scotch 3M system has not been directly released - they're a flat archive that serves as the basis for the 1993 and 2000 remasterings. See my post above for more details. This actually isn't necessarily bad news. Since the Steely Dan analog master tapes were most likely destroyed in the 2008 Universal Studios Fire, if there are digital copies of the 3M digital flat transfers, that's a good thing for archival purposes. I'm assuming alternate digital copies were made at the time of that transfer, since those 3M decks are pretty scarce. This also means that the 1993 and 2000 discs are effectively from the original analog master tapes - they're not from analog safety copies or other bit-twiddled sources. Hopefully they're kept somewhere safe. Cheers, Paul
That is hard to tell. Gaucho is the one mastering that's really hard to pull apart. I would think that the masterings from 1984 - like 3 and/or 5 - would be by Roger. The 1986 might be one of the unknown engineer MCA analog remasters mentioned above - the EAC peak values don't seem to match the pattern of 3 or 5 - but I really don't know. Maybe use the method listed above to figure the time of your Babylon Sisters? Cheers, Paul
One last thing - when I mention the 1988 discs - what I mean are the first run of discs in the '80s - according to Discogs, they're from either 1984 or 1985, depending on the title. For some reason, my brain transposed that to 1988 tonight. Sorry about the confusion. Cheers, Paul
So three major release runs were done. The first in 1984/85 and the third in 1999/2000. But how about the second batch of (secret) remasters? I read somewhere that these initially came with a 'remastered' sticker on the cellophane wrap and vaguely remember a 1989 release date. Is this correct? I notice on the first page of this thread that the first 5 albums of this second run have a 311** catalog number but Aja and Gaucho still have the old 372** number. Were these all released around the same time (1989)?
That's the question, really. I think there's really been 4 mastering passes - 84/85 Nichols/Hoffman (1st), 91/93 Meadows (3rd), and 99/00 Nichols (4th) are the primary three. It's the 2nd that's the "mystery" pass - done from the master analog tapes by unknown MCA personnel at various points between 84/85 and 90/91. It's not clear that all albums were subjected to the 2nd remaster either - EAC has been helpful in identifying the major mastering passes - but not all albums have a unique mastering between 84/85 and 90/91. For example, I think Aja and Gaucho do, but, Can't Buy A Thrill doesn't. From Glenn's notes above - see the comments section in The Best Version Of… Steely Dan’s Aja - it's not exactly clear when he remastered all 7 albums at Masterfonics with Roger advising - but we can come close to a date: Fast forward to mid 1990’s. Roger Nichools is now living in Nashville, and I (Glenn Meadows) have been working with him mastering projects for him. It was at that point that the re-mastering that later became the box set occurred. All 7 of the CD’s were remastered at that time to update ALL CD releases. Transfers were made from the 3M system for mastering. The oldest albums were of course in the worst shape at the time of the analog transfers. That was how all 7 albums were re-mastered, and re-released. The ONLY notation was a sticker that said “Recently Re-Mastered by Artist” During the time of re-master, Roger, Walter and Donald were in Hawaii working on the final mixes/recoding of Kamakeriad, and approval was done by sending CDR’s to them via Fed Ex for approval. All mastering was done by myself, with the instructions to “pretend you’ve never heard the albums before, and do what you feel appropriate”, and we’ll listen and advise as you go along. Albums were approved as initially presented to them, no changes. The box set was simply a re-edit adjusting sequence to match that provided by MCA to fit on 4 CD’s. Since we were about a year and ahalf later, there were some improvements in the CEDAR system, and there were several tracks that I was unable to completely remove the tape his without having resulting “space monkey” artifacts. With the later version of CEDAR, I was able to successfully remove the last vestiges of the tape hiss. So - since the box set was released in 1993 or so - and Glenn says it was assembled a year and a half later after his remastering - the run of discs with the "remastered by the artist" stickers would have occurred around 1990/1991 or so. Those "remastered by the artist" discs would be Glenn's mastering - very close to the Citizen Steely Dan mastering. I think this lines up with your recollections. This does line up with the Kamakiriad dates as well. Cheers, Paul P.S. Anyone ever see an Aja or a Gaucho with the "remastered by the artist" sticker? That's the one I'd expect to see an additional mastering that lines up with the Citizen Steely Dan EAC peak values.
Well - that's interesting! I was really hoping it would match one of the other times - it seems slower than mastering 3! Cheers, Paul
When I have some time I'll put it in an audio editor for more precision. I used foobar for that one, should be close though.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the clarification. That’s my TBVO article, and you’re right that my wording isn’t correct. 3M and Sony are different. However, given that the same bursts of noise in certain spots are common across Nichols’s ‘80s mastering, Meadows’s Citizen mastering, and Nichols’s ‘90s mastering of Aja, all had to have been sourced from the 3M tapes. My guess is that the analog tapes were transferred flat to the 3M system, which Nichols and Dan liked (it was used for Nigthfly). Then that flat digital 3M tape was the source used when mastering the ‘80s CDs. Then the mastered files (ED’d, etc.) for those CDs were sent to pressing plants on the Sony PCM tapes, since they were the preferred format for that purpose.
When the original MCA CDs were released, they had to send 1600 tapes to the manufacturer, which could NOT be EQ'd. The first time they were "remastered" were when 1630 was used, which allowed digital EQ'ing. The first digital remaster that I have seen for certain is a late 80's or early 90's Aja made by JVC US (tetris matrix), which had RE1 within the matrix. That was the first US MCA CD of Aja that had different EAC peak levels. Prior to that, all MCA CDs were from Steve Hoffman digital transfer.
Thank you for replying and for posting Glenn's recollections! As for the 80's discs mastered from the 3M reels, it does contradict what Glenn seems to be saying. He seems pretty adamant in his recollections that they were separate passes - and the glitches found only on the 80's discs would tend to lend credence to that theory. The other glitches common across the masterings may be on the original analog tapes - since the archives were made at the same time - they would share the same analog glitches. We know that Katy Lied, for instance, was sourced from the dbx masters by our host and used for the 80's CDs - it has the tell-tale dbx noise-reduced sound to it. The subsequent remasters seem to sound like they're from a different source - hard to tell for sure. Steely Dan "Katy Lied" MCA LP question - best sounding version? and Katy Lied We also know that our host has detailed his Aja transfer - this was not from the 3M deck either: Do I hear an edit in "Aja"? and Steely Dan- Aja coming on vinyl remastered by Kevin Gray The confirmed Hoffman mastering was done this way. Finally - there's also the timing of the tracks on Gaucho: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: Gaucho MCA US 198? 37220 DIDX 56: 5:43.5 (Mastering 3) MCA EU 1993 Citizen boxed set MCAD4-10981: 5:41.1 (Mastering 4) MCA EU 2000 remaster 112 055-2: 5:41.1 (Mastering 1) This would seem to indicate that the '93 and '00 are from the same source - but the original '84 is not. (The earliest Mastering 3 discs are from 1984, according to EAC.) Cheers, Paul
Follow-up on Aja - listen to I Got The News at 2:19 ("I would still be proud to know you"). There's a static in the left channel that's present in Citizen and the 2000 remaster - it's not on the 80's. Steely Dan underrepresented on audiophile versions? Cheers, Paul
I’ll double check when I can, but I heard a glitch around 2:18 in “I Got the News” in Nichols’s ‘84, Citizen, and Nichols’s ‘99. I didn’t hear it in Hoffman’s mastering, the Japanese SACD, or the Japanese MQA CD. So it seems like it’s not something on the analog tape, but unique to the digital 3M tape.
First - apologies if I sound overly pedantic here. I do appreciate all the effort you've put in - and this is not meant as criticism in any way. I'm just trying to untangle this like everyone else. That being said, I am not 100% convinced that what you've identified as the Nichols '84 Mastering is indeed a Nichols mastering. If you're talking about Mastering 4, it is my belief that it is derived from Glenn Meadows' remastering pass, and is not the Nichols' master. From what I can see on your spectrographs, this would seem to indicate that it dates from the Glenn Meadows era. As Glenn points out, the Citizen Steely Dan discs were released a year later and have slightly more advanced CEDAR applied here and there, which might explain the subtle noise, EQ and EAC peak differences. Also - MCA was notorious about reusing cover art, so the fact that it doesn't have a barcode might be meaningless and not a definitive way to establish date. If you're not identifying Mastering #4 as Nichols', mea culpa. The follow-up question would then be - Is your '84 Nichols mastering on our list? As for 3, 6 and 7 - I can confirm the glitch does not appear on 3 or 7. One of the problems here is that 3, 6 and 7 have been variously identified as Nichols' mastering, Hoffman's mastering or some combination thereof. (See here: Steely Dan CDs Different Masterings: Aja ) The only thing we know for sure is - our host did a transfer of Aja. Then, Roger took the tapes, ostensibly to do his own mastering. At this point - it's conjecture as to whether Roger just used Steve's transfer for Aja - or made his own. But all of the early Aja CDs - 3, 6, and 7 - seem to be from the same original digital source - and not the same as the 3M reels. Although our host identified 7 as his, it's also the one that effectively has added low level dither when nulled against 3 or 6 - which could make it sound smoother on high end gear. It's unclear where this was added, but possibly at Nimbus during their glass mastering phase. Cheers, Paul
