Stylus and record wear (again)

Hi all,

at the moment I use a newly bought AT100E stylus / cartridge on my Pioneer PL12D turntable. I was advised to buy this budget stylus / cartridge as it gives good performance for the money. I'm very happy with the sound quality and performace although I have no reference to other styli / cartridges. But at least it sounds just nice together with my electrostatic loudspeakers!

Yesterday I've read the topic about record wear and according to the message linked below depending on the stylus type / shape the record wears after a given amount of passes. My AT100E stylus is elliptical and according to the message that is referring to a test the record wear starts after only 60 to 100 passes wheras line-contact styli give much less record wear. (48,000 passes without damage)

Am I too paranoia / ocd right now because I bought some, at least for my taste, expensive new records (everything more expensive than 20 euro's per record feels expensive to me) and I try to do everything to keep them in the best condition possible. But I'm wondering if my elliptical stylus is ok to use? I think I've played most of my records about 5 to 20 times, rough guess, not that much as I own my recordplayer for less than one year now. Do you think it is okay to continue using my current stylus or should I upgrade to a better stylus that puts less wear on my records ? (for example a AT micro line stylus)

I just didn't know about these numbers for the elliptical stylus.

Message:

Question: how many plays before vinyl audibly degrades?

 

250 -350 ,hours and depending on clean or dirty records. Thats who Jico say.
This is for top performance. No damage should occur for up to 500 hours.
Moving coils can last longer.
Irrespective of hours how does it sound?
Surface noise. Smooth not harsh vocals
Will tell you what you need to know.
Always keep a New stylus handy.
When in doubt swop over and listen.
Best way i know.

 

"Only" 60 to 100 passes? How many people normally play an album that many times? Even if you play the same record once a week, every week, as some sort of ritual, that'd take you almost two years to get to 100 plays. And if you're really that dedicated to listening to a particular album on vinyl, wouldn't you have multiple copies of it?

 

Hi All!

The question of record wear gets a wide range of responses. There are many variables in the playing of a record that will affect its wear. I'd like to share something I learned a long, long time ago–before StarWars. One of the audiophile magazines of the late 60's (Audio, Stereo Review, Hi Fidelity, Audiophile) -yes, I'm that old-published an article about vinyl record wear. I believed they used a Dual turntable, an elliptical cartridge/stylus set at 1-gram, and used microscopes/electron microscopes to measure and analyze the record wear.

What they determined is that a record played more frequently than every 16 hours showed compression wear. The vinyl's resilience took 16 hours to return to its original shape. More frequent playing compressed the vinyl and, of course, the grooves. This degraded the frequency response response and dynamic range. Ever since reading that article I have never played my records more often that every 16 hours. Recordings were transferred to cassette for more frequent play. I would select a record from the left of my collection, play it, and move it to the right end. Preserving the vinyl was more important to me that maintaining any particular order. All of my records are in excellent shape and sound as good as the did new. BTW, I always used a Discwasher prior to play.

Keep in mind that this test was done on vinyl manufactured in the late '60s. Wear parameters from more recent manufacturing formulas may be better.

Having searched online for years. I didn't find any files of that article, which was written between 1968 and 1970–too early to make it to a digital database. If any member of this forum lives in the DC area and likes adventure, then a trip to the Library of Congress to find that article and share it with me and others would truly be appreciated.

Good listening!

Vinyled

 

If you want to try to track down that article:

Audio magazine archive (1947-2000): AUDIO - Consumer audio and music magazine from 1947 to 2000.

Hi-Fi/Stereo Review magazine archive (1958-1999): STEREO REVIEW:  Consumer audio and music magazine beginning in 1958

High Fidelity magazine archive (1951-1989): HIGH FIDELITY - Consumer audio and music magazine

 

I just clean and play my records as the mood strikes me, never giving much thought to the "wear and tear" I might (or might not) be inflicting on my vinyl.

I look at it this way: I started buying records something like 55 years ago and still have almost all of them. The majority were obtained between the late '60s and late'70s and during those early years were played with reckless abandon, over and over and over again, on less than stellar equipment, not always properly set up, often mishandled by friends and roommates.

Fast forward to the present. Those same records which have traveled with me from apartment to apartment, dorm room to dorm room and house to house, STILL almost universally sound as good (and sometimes as great) as ever. Sure, the covers are worn, there are visible scratches and blemishes from who knows who or what, but by and large I just give them a good cleaning with the old Discwasher, drop the needle into the groove and sit back and enjoy. That's all there is to it. Of course my gear is properly aligned and configured.

I should add that in addition to mostly using relatively light-tracking carts with advanced profile styli (stereohedron, shibata, etc.), I try to replace any stylus that shows signs of nearing the end of its useful life.

 

I have about 40,000 records, so I really should not worry about playing one record so many times that it will be "worn out". But, actually, there are a core few records that I play VERY often, particularly for visitors. And, I do feel guilty every time I play a record, that I may be adding noise or subtracting fidelity with each play. But the cartridge? No, I figure it is dispensable. I can always get a new cartridge, but I cannot easily replace the 100 or so "core" records that I seem to play more than their fair share of my total record collection.

So, I say, go ahead and wear-out your cartridge, and then you will have the opportunity to upgrade later to something a little better. But try not to play any one record so many times, that it gets its unfair share of wear.

 

As I see it there are several different opinions on both record wear and needle wear. I cannot really see that we are looking at something conclusive that we can go out with as facts. Records will wear and needles will wear, how much in general it´s very hard to know. To really investigate this nobody is really interested in, it´s too complicated.

 

Don't play the same records over and over. Replace your stylus when it is worn. Take care of your records and keep them clean.

 

Avoid advice on how often to change your stylus coming from people selling you the replacement stylus.

 

Any VTF greater than the manufacturer's recommendations will irreparable damage the vinyl record very fast. For example, if the VTF for a JICO SAS stylus is 2g or greater, your vinyl record will be cut like a Lacquer master disc. I use the mid VTF of the recommended range by the cart/stylus manufacturers.

 

I've been playing the new Death and Vanilla Are You a Dreamer? record over and over and over for the last few weeks, just can't seem to get enough of it right now. But if that means a bit of damage with each repeat play, not that big of a deal to me compared to the enjoyment it is bringing, and I could always buy another copy, still sounds pretty nice ...

 

Presumably manufacturers provide a tracking range for which their products have been designed and tested and in which they are expected to perform properly. While operating outside of that range (within reason) may, in fact, damage your vinyl, I think it's even more likely to damage the stylus and cartridge suspension or just plain sound bad. Irreparable record damage?? Perhaps. I'm sure people have inadvertently set their VTF too low or high (misread their scales or gauges, improperly balanced their tonearms, incorrectly compensated for a stylus brush, had a brain fart, etc.) and later realized their errors. Doesn't mean they necessarily ruined their records. But it is usually a bad policy not to adhere to the manufacturers' recommendations.

 

Anybody here purposely try to wear out a record? It's not as easy as you think.

 

This is reassuring, because I don’t make any effort to avoid overplaying a record. I play them whenever I want to hear them (I do have multiple copies of some records just in case they do start to sound worn). I don’t generally play anything more than once in a day, but that’s more because I have already heard it that day.

 

I don’t feel guilt about wearing out something I own for the purpose of using, but I absolutley agree with this attitude toward styli. It’s one reason I don’t see myself graduating any time soon to a cartridge or stylus that is very expensive to replace. I would much rather err on the side of early stylus replacement than damage records because I am trying to get the most out of a high-priced retip.

 

I've thought about this often. Sometimes I play a selection from a record over and over again, mostly when I'm comparing a component or tube or something, and outside of the changes under audition, I never detect any degradation of sound, in particular in the high frequencies. Maybe @Davey above will continue to play his Death and Vanilla record over and over and report any changes. Or maybe someone will just try it -- try to play a record over and over to see or hear any changes over time, especially within a 16 hour window, but even beyond that. If they've got the time of course.

 

Actually too light of a tracking force causes damage to your records more quickly than too heavy, due to mistracking. To avoid this, it's always safer to be on the middle to higher side of the manufacturer's recommended range. The minimum tracking force spec is often just made up for marketing reasons, due to the popular myth that a tracking force that is as light as possible is always better.

Proper alignment and adjustment is indeed more critical for SAS, Shibata, MicroLine, VividLine, and other "advanced profile" styli -- and even when set up perfectly, some of them are known to tear up styrene 45s. An ordinary conical or elliptical stylus is much more forgiving.

 

Stylus shapes / profiles will indeed affect wear.
It has to do with surface area mostly. The greater the contact area with the groove the less wear is afflicted and vice versa. Mass and force also plays into it of course.
But if you worry a lot, a finer profiled stylus might be worth it.
I care a lot about record wear and as such got myself an exotic stylus. But dont be too scared to play your records.
If you keep them clean and the stylus, have everything installed properly and dont hear any distortion then they wont wear too much over just a few dozen plays.
When you hear mistracking and types of distortion, thats when youre doing the worst damage.

 

Depends on what record as well. Challenging inner grooves will wear more easily on lesser gear.

 

And you should get more passes than other eliptical stylus with the same dimensions.
(Stylus Shape 0.3 x 0.7 mil jointed elliptical)

When the AT100E has according to AT a VERY LOW tracking force in my opinion:
"Vertical Tracking Force
1.0-1.8 grams (1.4 grams optimal)"

So if a more advanced stylus shape has greater contact area but many usually also have greater VTF than your cartridge. It is not almost the same but it is not as bad as your cartridge would have a equally high VTF as the advance stylus shape!
(If you follow me)

And that plus other opinions here in the thread. You should not worry and just enjoy your records.

 

The VTF has much less effect on the wear compared to surface area. And too light tracking causes more damage than too heavy.

 

No, it is simple physics the wear of two objects is determined by the force on each square area it acts on.

Well we are NOT talking about too light tracking! We are talking about that the RECOMMENDED VTF from the manufacturer AT for just this particular cartridge is 1.4g.

The same manufacturer makes more pricier cartridges like VM540ML (Micro Line) that is a more advanced shape and is recommended to use 2.0g.

Audio technica know more than us and there are other factors that determine why a cartridge will have a given VTF to track optimal (or as good that a given cartridge model can do).

So the Micro Line has bigger contact area so we are talking about pressure for each square area that the force makes.
I only reflecting that his AT100E has on the other hand 30% LESS pressure! Than the Micro Line cartridge in this example..

In summary smaller contact area but ~30% less force on that area also. Maybe something to take into account?

 

And good profiles can have more than 3 times the contact area. And you dont need more VTF necessarily, the VM540 is just another cart entirely. There are other factors like Mass and damping as well which are typically better in more expensive carts with finer styli. 1.4 or 2.0 grams is not that big of a difference in comparison.

 

True, when the area is 3 times more. Good point.
But still a difference. Yes VM540ML is a entirely different cartridge but I choose it because it is from the same manufacturer. There is other cartridges with the same shape and dimensions as the AT100E but tracks heavier.