New speakers are on the to do list, too. Most likely bigger Harbeth, but I'm also thinking about something brighter and more neutral, especially if I get one of the Sugden.
I must have seen the Canadian or Australian dollar price of the IA-4 - at $6500 - then that to me would be the one to get if you can afford the price difference. I would struggle to think of a better-sounding SS amplifier for the same price- But then I could say that about the A21. The only amplifier I regret selling was my old Sugden A48B and it wasn't even a Class A Sugden. I almost bought a Sugden Headmaster - but it was a bit too pricey for me back then. I wish they still made those - a SS headphone amp that I actually liked. You can't go wrong with whichever Sugden you buy. Sugden even made pretty respectable speakers for a time - but I suspect there was too much competition. My only suggestion is to try and hear the Sugdens with speakers you are also interested in buying. Ie, audition a system and not components and then "hope" the amplifier will sound good with your speakers. So if you want the Harbeth Super HL5+ try to audition them together.
My question was really more specific, which is whether anyone choosing between the two opted for the a21se, and why. I was really drawn to the midrange of the a21se, and I worry I'd miss it a bit with the IA-4, which seems more linear.
The a21se has those thicker/lusher chocolateyy mids of some old school class A (think vintage higher end Pioneer class A). I get a reminder of that signature currently on one modern day amp. I have not heard the IA-4, but if they went more neutral, you may not like it. A way around it would be that if you have peq or some tool to bump up the mid/presence range by a db or 2 to get some perception of that lushness back. If you don't have such tools, you could audit both the Sugden amps and keep the one you like/ return the one you don't like.
Yep, this is precisely why I'm asking if anyone compared the two and chose the a21se. Conversely, I'm curious to hear if anyone who also was drawn to the a21se midrange chose the IA-4 and then regretted it after extended use.
Interesting. Seems to be the opposite of what folks had to say when I was talking with other Sugden owners. Ymmv obviously, if you like the a21se just keep the a21se and a couple thousand dollars
Oh, that is interesting. I tested the IA-4 with P3s, which I have, and Magico A1, which are nice but not for me, so that might have influenced my perception. I plan to go back for another listen, and I'll keep in that mind.
You are listening to a great SS brand. I would suggest going with your own ears here. Just because they make a more expensive amp doesn't mean you will like it more. On order to add more power they have to make changes to the recipe. I know people who prefer the regular Suden a21 to the a21SE. This goes to many other brands as well. I remember not buying a Sugdem A21 back in the day because I trusted reviews amd wound up buying a middling Arcam Delta 290 instead. Still my biggest Audio Regret.
Yup, it seems like a lot of people prefer the a21se. I can hear what's objectively "better" about the ia-4, but I think I get more of a kick out of the a21se. A bit less separation/balance, but a really lush midrange that I can listen to for a long time. At least that's been my impression so far. I'm going back tomorrow to listen again, and also to check out the c7s and 30s.
The thing is once you get used to a very clear,transparent high resolution sound you find it hard to give that up for some tonal richness.But if you have something with less resolution and nice tone and do not get to live with a higher resolution amps then you will be perfectly content with that sort of sound.Be careful what you wish for in way! Owning Bakoon amps which have incredible purity and clarity has spoiled my enjoyment for things like 300B and 845 SETs and push pull tube amps.Well I can still enjoy them but after a while I crave the clarity and detail of the Bakoons. Using the IA-4 might do the same thing.
@mrkrinkle I've owned an IA4 for about a year now and can share some thoughts. I have not heard the A21SE but I can share with you that I have never heard a more tonally accurate, emotionally engaging mid-range, vocals than I have with the IA4. From my experience the IA4 excels in getting the tone and timbre of instruments, voices, just right. Combine that with an excellent soundstage and it really pulls you in. Where I find it lacking a bit is in dynamics, it's not terrible here just something to be mindful of and in fact the A21SE may give you more slam, punch when music calls for it. I had the IA4 paired with Harbeth 30.2xd for a while and vocals were literally best I've ever heard. However, all this being said if the A21SE sounds right to you then I don't think you'll be disappointed. If you listen to Vinyl, you'll get the added flexibility of picking your own Phono pre-amp as the one on the IA4 is good but not great. Also having heard other Class A Integrateds from Luxman (L550AXII) and Pass (INT25), the IA4 to me is not as warm, lush as those. It is just a bit on the warmer side of neutral but just as engaging if not more so than the Pass.. Good luck on your search...
Agreed. I do have the as1200, which is very airy and detailed, so I'll have that option, too. But I know exactly what you mean. The bottom line is that there's always a trade off....
Very helpful, thanks. I agree that the a21se has more kick in the mids. The overall balance and consistent clarity of the ia-4 are great, though. Detailed but never anemic or artificial sounding, and really musical. This is why I feel stuck. They're both really good options, but in different ways. Btw, I'm surprised to hear you say that about the Lux. I've only heard the 507z in person. It was gorgeous, as expected, but I think it was significantly brighter than the Sugdens. I loved it, but was worried about fatigue in the long-run. Plus I already have a Yamaha and to me they're somewhat similar in sound.
Reading between the lines here you probably should try to have a listen to a Dartzeel NHB 108 .Or dare I say it one of the better Chinese copies.They seem to combine very high resolution with a beautiful and expressive midrange.They sound quite ordinary without a good active preamp however.
I believe the NHB108 is a stand alone amp versus an integrated. It's also significantly more expensive than the 2 Sugdens the OP is considering.
Bling Bling ... Adding a preamp is not a problem, if the price is correct, A mere DarTZeel NHB-108 - Amplificateur de puissance - Exception Audio 53,300.00 Euros
If there is an amplifier brand that is more overpriced and hideously tacky looking than D'agostin0 - it is DarTZeel.
Thanks. TBH, hyper resolution takes away from the experience for me. I find it a bit overwhelming. I'm pretty sensitive to high frequencies.
I’m surprised to hear the A21se signature being compared to the IA4 as if they were really that different. They are both 25-30wpc. It is my understanding that the IA4 has considerably better parts quality and power supplies. I’m not surprised that the IA4 driving Harbeth 30.2’s doesn’t seem that dynamic…it take a bit more power to come alive than a Sugden integrated. Since Goldprint handles both product lines maybe he could opine. Mrkinkle, pick your speakers then pick your amp.
The yellow gold front plate makes me think of Leben. Have a soft spot strictly from 70s nostalgia. But I'm not sure I'd want to live with it.
Right now it'll be P3s. What I'm trying to decide is whether to get new amp, bigger Harbeth, or just more vinyl.
I heard a 509x after hearing the L550axII and walked away with the same impression as you did of the 507z. The L550axII sounds more Class A like in terms of warmth than the IA4. Just to be clear this is not a criticism of the Luxman it's just a different presentation if that's what you're after. I've also heard an A-S2200, it definitely presents with more air and extended high frequencies than the IA4 but it is not as musical or engaging from my experience. In fact the 33 Watts of the IA4 felt more powerful than the 90 of the Yamaha.
The Yamaha sounds really great with the P3s, IMO. Great synergy with the MP-200, for instance. But I really love how much body/weight the Sugdens give to the music.
