The Finish Line for your Phono Cartridge- Stylus Wear by Mike Bodell

A few years back, I met the inventor of the Logarithmic analog-to-digital converter, Patent number: 4350974 from 1980, granted in 1982. We were on a ship bound for the Antarctic and we had a lot of time to talk audio. The guy has done it all, including designing a headphone amp just a few years ago that is incredibly well received. While quite opinionated, it was obvious he knew audio in ways I never would.

He told me he was once a vinyl turntable guy. Attendant with his broader work in analog t0 digital audio, he evaluated the resultant frequency response of vinyl records over play time. He said he learned that if you took a test record, the ones different companies sell to evaluate a system, that the highest frequencies down to what is finally audible to humans are removed in the first play of that record. I was surprised by that. But given his expertise compared to mine, why would I question him on it. He said that playing records the first few times, removes the highest frequency data in the grooves. And that very slowly thereafter, with continued play, a record loses more information. Given the tests we all perform by playing our own records, once the highest frequency data is 'worn' off, we can assume that subsequent degradation is extremely slow.

 

Im guessing you are referring to Hans Weedon, he goes by HJweedon on diyaudio? Just read a few of his posts, it’s clear he’s a smart guy with tons of experience in audio (though it appears his expertise goes way beyond that). I’d be curious on what kind of headphone amp he made!

 

Yep. He told me in a phone call in 2017, cannot remember. We have not communicated since January, perhaps I should reach out to him.

 

I have proof that it doesn't necessarily erase the HF content, at least not at the beginning of the record, and not with a well kept MR stylus. It was while I was taking a needle-drop of Parachute Club - At The Feet Of The moon that I noticed a strange, very high pitch warble up near 40kHz during the intro of the first track. I have no idea what it is or how it got there, but after playing it hundreds of times since its release, the pitch warble is still there as it is in the needle-drop. No, it's not an artefact of my digital conversion either, or it would be throughout all of the drops I made. It also ends with the intro so it may be a boo-boo in the track itself that crept in during mixing. Sure, it's not audible, but it's there!

 

Interesting. That would be consistent in theory with the Shibata CD4 thing, right? (I think the carrier was lower?). Hey, I do what I can, re: set up, clean records and clean stylus. The medium itself- it's something I've lived with forever. Now that I'm getting older, and my main system is less plug and play, it is more of a PITA, my friend Ken says it's all self- imposed- tubes everywhere, air compressor driven arm, etc. Aren't we all masochists to some degree? Who adopts this medium now with the idea that you run on autopilot? Maybe my nervous system has had too many shocks-- Post Traumatic Vinyl Syndrome. Or something.
It's still glorious when you get it right and a good record is spinning.

 

That may be tape bias tone if it's an old enough recording, but I'm surprised the content was transferred to the grooves. Since you were playing an MR stylus, you'd of course expect better tracing of such a high frequency tone, but I don't have a good sense of how groove wear occurs vs frequency and versus stylus shape and tip wear. It seems a complex relationship.

One thing I have not mentioned is that the dust on the record surface was not evenly-distributed. There were areas that had much more dust and (presumably) more wear than others, including some short passages along single grooves. I did not document these distributions but if I continue play past 1000 hours I will likely do so. It would not be easy to know where those areas of extra wear are vs the sound produced. If anyone has a suggestion, let's discuss it.

It's not that simple. See my response below...

I commented on this earlier in the thread, but perhaps it's worth mentioning again here...

The recordings I made used the same cartridge model, with one being new and one having 480 hours of wear. There was minimal wear on the stylus tip even at 480 hours, so playing the record with new vs old likely contacted similar areas of the groove. The result was that there was not a lot of difference between playing the worn record using the new vs old stylus, or similarly in playing the new record. However, when I played the worn record using a different cartridge, it was a very different experience. I used an Andante P76, which has a line contact stylus tip, so it was hitting the grooves "differently" versus the Empire 480LT. The overall music sounded similar, but the surface noise was completely different, and very unstable. The noise was higher than with the 480LT, and moved back and forth from left to right channel. I can only presume that the P76 is hitting both unworn and worn areas of the groove walls, and that this is indicative of heavy wear. Perhaps I will record the worn record using the P76 to see how bad this phenomenon has progressed at 1000 hours.

 

I must admit that this thread has me a bit bummed.I have a Ortolan Cadenza Black cartridge(the one used in the original articles testing) that I bought in early Summer(and I LOVE it's performance,btw).I was told that I could expect 2000 hours of use from the Ortofon rep,which sounded reasonable to me.I have put about 100 hours on it so far.Now that the Winter months are nearing,I will likely be hitting that 500 hour mark before Spring where the writer of the article states that would be optimum replacement time.

Didn't really want to send thousands of $ in less then a year on a cartridge but I also have a nice collection of records that I take very good care of and don't want to damage.

Has anyone else decided that they will now replace their cartridges much sooner then previously expected based on the information in this thread?

 

Muriel- i've run cartridges, quite expensive ones, far longer than that. I think the main issues (at least my take away) are: to keep track of the hours (which you appear to be doing- I didn't start using a tally counter until recently, with a new batch of cartridges); keeping the stylus and records clean; good initial set up, including anti-skate; and being sensitive to indications of wear. I think the 500 hour marker was based on the JICO data suggesting distortion of 3% at 15khz. Peter Ledermann offers that if record damage is the measure, one could double or quadruple the running time.

I don't think anyone wants to damage their records and in my experience, mentioned in some recent posts, I have a number of records that I've owned since the '70s and '80s that were played on a variety of cartridge/arms. I wasn't nearly as focused on set up as I am now, and those play fine. (I also speculate that my current cartridges may be in contact with a different portion of the groove than those earlier set ups).

I think the watchword is to be sensitive to the issue; I do agree that given the cost of high end cartridges, the fact that they are a consumable is discouraging. But, I also wouldn't let this rob enjoyment.

I'm not sure there is one good answer either- Ray's experiment involved lighter tracking forces than I use. I know several people who run high end cartridges who say 'it sounds fine, I'm not going to worry about it" and when it starts to sound "off" I'll deal with it.

I guess I come away from this being a little more concerned about stylus life, apart from evident things like skew of cantilever or other obvious damage. It may make sense to have two cartridges at some point- hell, I used to have a box full of old cartridges- and if you are up for it, send one out for a re-tip while using the other. I didn't do that in the past because I typically upgraded the cartridge at a certain point- sometimes, you get trade in allowances to do so that ease the pain of price. Since I now have a number of cartridges, and am more comfortable with retips and rebuilds, I can live with this -- even to the point of sending the cartridge out for inspection if necessary-- without being deprived of music.
PS: I think in Mike's case, with his Ortofon, once he started to hear the sibilance or tracing distortion, he realized that he was overdue and it was far earlier than the 2,000 hours "life" claimed for some of these.

 

It would also be very interesting to see how it plays now on Conical and Elliptical styli.
Perhaps the surface noise is lower on those.

 

If you know someone with a proper 200X + microscope you could always take it in or send it in for inspection.

 

It certainly is believable if we're talking about about an average conical or elliptical stylus.

A tell tale sign of groove wear on a used record is high frequencies that are shaved off, especially with the last two tracks on each side. If it's real bad, it'll be audible depending on the state of your hearing. Some folks might not hear it if they have typical age-related hearing loss.

The latter point is why I don't trust the "it sounds fine" cohort, even without the evidence w/r/t stylus wear we have now.

One of the reasons I like reasonably priced cartridges is because I can replace the stylus without taking a huge hit. I also don't have to wait months for a retipper whose workbench is backed up with orders.

 

HF loss is recognized as being caused by the stylus' inability to precisely follow the groove modulations. Consequently, it rides a straight line through them, shearing off the apexes. This was a real issue before low tracking weights and fine line stylus shapes came into use. It's more of a conditional truth today. and far from an absolute.

A needle-drop should reveal quite a bit of wear and tear when viewed through a spectrogram. What's not so easily determined is the wear mechanism. For this, I think a microscope would be more revealing.

 

I wonder why the shearing takes place. I would think the passing stylus would just momentarily depress the modulations rather than shear them off. But maybe an old conical set at 7-8 grams VTF would do that, but my impression and experience is that most good quality record vinyl is tougher than most think, and quite resistant to actually being sheared off as if a fine blade (or damaged stylus) scraped them.

 

I don't have a big problem with folks who say they are OK with playing records and styli as long as they can't hear a problem. I would not want to buy any records from those folks, but indeed if they don't hear the damage that is being done, and are OK with that, more power to them. However, it's instructive to go back to the criteria used by JICO (and maybe others) for replacing the stylus, which is a 3% increase in distortion at 15kHz. That level of distortion, at that frequency, is essentially inaudible. I really wonder what level of distortion and damage the "play it until I can hear a problem" crowd are doing to their vinyl?

 

Yep, if they want to play their records this way, it's their prerogative. What I don't want to do is buy used records from them or take equipment advice from them.

My 2 cents.

 

Well I finally got my cartridge re-tipped after 11 years of use a few months ago, causing much shock and disbelief from many here worried about possible damage I was doing to my records in that time. After the re-tip I admit the sound was fuller, louder and more dynamic than before, but so far all my favorite records sound fine to me, no discernible (audible to me - a picky audiophile intent on the best sound I can get) distortion from the latter years of use of that worn cartridge. And as long as I don't hear any damage, then I'm happy.

By the way, in retrospect there was one album "John Wesley Harding" original pressing by Bob Dylan, that I remember playing about a year ago after I bought it on eBay (before the re-tip) and noticed some real distortion on his harmonica when he was wailing on it, and also a bit of bass distortion, which led me to believe at that time that it was a defective/damaged record -- as it was the only one I detected distortion on before the re-tip. But I played that same record after the re-tip, and the distortion was gone! Just a perfect record with those wailing harmonica passages clear and biting, beautiful hard-hitting bass, but no distortion (again that I can hear, which is all that matters to me). Luckily my worn cartridge did no damage to it either apparently.

 

Congratulations. If you don't look, you'll never know. So well done.

 

Trust...but verify. Verify being the operative word. Unfortunately, that costs money some aren't willing to spend. So they will never know what is what, will they?

 

Did you have it re-tipped with the same stylus shape?

I've hear a few times that after a re-tip the sound was louder than before. Can anyone explain why this would be the case? I assume the re-tip did not include any work on the magnetic or coil structure, so sensitivity should not change. I suppose the cantilever could be shorter than before? Seems weird to me that this is something several folks have said.

 

agreed. I had mentioned earlier that I reached out to Audio technica on their perspective, and they said they offer a free inspection within warranty. Mine Vm740ml warranty is up in December so I am definitely going to send it in and take them on their offer. I was super happy with their customer service, I had a bent cantilever and they offered a new stylus at 50% retail and they took really good pics of what a straight vs bent one looked like, very customer oriented.

 

In a case of extreme wear, I think a volume drop might be possible, especially in one channel. I had a friend who that happened to, he got a set of used Concorde DJ carts and noticed one channel was louder than the other on both. I'm guessing due to wear and over or under compensated antiskate. When he replaced the styli, the left and right channels were even.

 

Shure has instructions for using their SEK-2 microscope to examine a stylus for wear.

The manual can be found here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct.../SEK-2/en-US&usg=AOvVaw1vwhyj42JWH6YnsvaSybfE

Within that manual are images of stylus shapes both new and worn.

If you have access to a microscope (it doesn't have to be the Shure model), you can check for wear yourself. I use a $15 100-200x illuminated pocket scope, the hardest part is finding the diamond and keeping the scope on it. A torn-off small piece of colored paper (like a shred of post-it note) placed near the diamond can help you quickly locate it.

Once you've got it in view, though, it is fairly easy to see the shape and spot problems.

 

Hard to know who to listen to these days. Thanks for that data point.

 

Placebo?