A couple thoughts: on the alcohol evaporation question, I think it will evaporate quicker than 'pure' water. How much, and whether that really throws off your formula is another question. I'd be changing out the bath water more frequently without a good filtration system anyway. One concern with alcohol vapor is its flash point- in one discussion on Audiogon, Terry9 and I were trying to figure out the safe proportion- chances are, the tiny amounts of alcohol used in these record cleaning mixtures may not be a problem, but I'd be wary of too much alcohol and am not sure what is too much. There's plenty of literature on the risk and not so much on the safe proportion. On the potential for damage to LPs from ultrasonic cleaning, there is a lot of literature in the industrial realm on corrosion or pitting of materials caused by ultrasonic cavitation. None of it seems to directly apply to records, though. I'm not aware of a controlled test for this, though there have been a number- if you search through the literature, involving other materials, see, e.g., https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043164812002682?via=ihub That series of tests involved subjecting materials to varying degrees of ultrasonic jetting and then examining the subject material under an optical scanner. I suppose one could set up a similar experiment using a 'blank' LP. How much the grooved surface affects impact is a question I couldn't begin to answer. There is a paper exploring ultrasonic effects on various plastics, but I don't think any of these are directly applicable to vinyl records, see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S004316481100384X?via=ihub Most of the information on ultrasonic cleaning and records is, to my knowledge, anecdotal. I've cleaned thousands of records using ultrasonic methods, often combined with more conventional record cleaning, including vacuum cleaning using a point nozzle machine, and have encountered no audible damage. Just as a point of information, one user inadvertently left a record in an ultrasonic bath for 45 minutes without the spinner operating and heard no evidence of damage- A History of Ultrasonic Record Cleaning | Audiogon Discussion Forum (scroll down to post by user 'Slaw'). One difference between the aluminum foil test and most ultrasonic record cleaning methods is the rotation of the record during cleaning, which minimizes the amount of time any portion of the record is exposed to the strongest beams of energy. But, there are a lot of variables- power, frequency, size of bath, proximity to transducers, etc. One factor I haven't really gotten my head around is the relatively low acoustic impedance of plastic, see the Hattori paper (abstract linked above) and its relationship to "impact loads." If there is a study that has been done in a controlled way that involves vinyl LPs, I'd love to see it. In the meantime, my experience using commercially available machines made for LP cleaning, like the Audio Desk and KL, have not caused any damage that I can hear. To the contrary, the results I have obtained, usually in combination with point nozzle cleaning, have yielded very clean sounding records over a system that is not very forgiving of noise, mistracking or other artifacts from record playback. Final note: I'm a big believer in a pure water rinse step to remove any residue of cleaning fluid. I know Tima's method involves no rinse step-- the same method @dminches is using. I gather that the surfactant/fluid mix you've adopted (based as I recall on the London Jazz Collector home brew) leaves no audible signature and doesn't require a rinse step. When I had the Audio Desk, which did use their proprietary fluid, I reduced the amount used from a full bottle to a capful- and subsequently, could see the bath water clinging to the surfaces of records previously cleaned in the Audio Desk when recleaned on the KL. (Not suggesting water alone, per the KL, is the best route; I was convinced, shortly after I bought the KL that a surfactant does enhance cavitation effectiveness). In any event, the small amount of AD fluid was not audibly noticeable even if there was some residue of it remaining on the dried record.
@Bill Hart Nice post Bill. I agree with you that a pure liquid rinse would be ideal for the final stage before drying. I just don’t know how to pull it off other than having a 2nd tank and rotator. Based on listening to the 200-300 records I have cleaned with my current method developed by Tim I don’t think the amount of residue, if any, is significant. I certainly can’t hear it even if it is there. I don’t think that the amount of alcohol I am using is unsafe but it is certainly more flammable than pure distilled. If Tim has a fire I will definitely change what I am doing!
Cheers @Bill Hart and @dminches This is all very helpful. Yeah, it's unclear to me how much the alcohol is evaporating. Probably somewhat, so small top ups might not be a bad idea, within safe limits (for the vinyl and for the chance of fire), and I'm moving toward a process of both replacing the water more often and using active filtration. I also might be moving from the Kirmuss to the Vinyl Stack system. I've got a Vinyl Stack in-house now, and I'm going to start off using it to rinse off four records at at time in either an US tank or just a plain Tupperware-style box filled with only distilled water. I figure that will save me having to hand-rinse each record after it's been through the Kirmuss, which will be filled with my cleaning solution. I may then go over to two Vinyl Stack systems, followed by an air dry. I'm vacuuming dry with a Record Doctor right now, but it's just too much work, too much noise, and too much hassle. Backlog of 250 records to go through... something's got to give. I might go with a Pro-Ject VCS vacuum machine, as it's so much faster that the Record Doctor, which, with its bottom-side vacuum slots and all the flipping involved, I'm finding to be a pain. It's good for what it is, but I need something more efficient/fuss-free. So either air drying with the Vinyl Stack stand and a fan, or the Pro-Ject RCM. We'll see. Thanks for the info, all!
Btw, does anyone have a good parts list for a US filtration system? I've looked at Tima's and Rushton's lists a few times, but I'm finding some of the items hard to locate at the moment. Here's what I've sourced as substitutes (on Amazon), but I'm slightly unclear if this will all fit together and/or whether I'll need additional adaptors, etc. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! pumps: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Syncra Silent 0.5 Pump (185 GPH) - Sicce filter housing: https://www.amazon.com/Pentek-158116-Slim-Line-Housing/dp/B0045LS8QS (I'm trying to find a cheaper version of this, or not a two-pack, but am not sure yet which cartridges fit which housings.) filter: https://www.amazon.com/FM-0-35-975-Pleated-Micron-Filter-Cartridge/dp/B018HDADIA Tubing: 3/8″ intake from the USC and 1/4″ output to the filter and back to the USC ?? Adapters and connectors??? Thanks again!
Also, looking to source an US tank for the Vinyl Stack. Seems like the often-used TruSonik tank is hard to get, so I'm looking at this one, which appears to be a clone (and Vevor recommended by Vinyl Stack). Anyone see any problems with this one? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0140M8H80/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Thanks!
How likely is mold growth? And wouldn't the alcohol inhibit it? I don't know the answer to either, so am curious...
I've left my tank full and stagnant for up to 4 weeks at a time without seeing any mold growth, or any changes at all. But I'm using homebrew (~10% bioethanol fuel / ~90% deionized water / ~0.5% Ilfotol) so not sure how that compares...
Also, I've got most of the parts for a filtration system in-house now. (Thanks, @dminches !) Not as expensive as I thought either. Question: Does the filter come before the pump or after? In this video by Rushton, it appears that the pump comes before the filter, so just double-checking. Thanks!
Quite the reverse in my experience, actually! I wet and ultrasonically clean every record that I acquire whether it is new or NM used. The difference this causes is nothing short of miraculous, that is my experience anyway. I only buy strong NM used records anyway (and the majority of those come from highly trusted sources in Japan) but I also buy new old shop stock. The cleaning operation, wet and ultrasonic, restores those records to like new in terms of sound. In fact, I would go as far as saying that many records that people complained about in the past (I include myself!) just needed a professional cleaning to get them sounding at their best. Of course we didn't have ultrasonic cleaning back in those days and wet cleaning with an enzyme agent good though it undoubtedly is, does not manage to remove all of the ticks and pops that we hear on records. Ultrasonic cleaning in my experience (5 years) goes the extra mile and resolves the issue. I think both systems compliment each other spectacularly well. I would never use one while excluding the other. Believe me, the new sound will be restored when you clean a NM record as I have described. By the same token, cleaning should not be overdone either and once should be enough, in most cases. I certainly would never use alcohol to clean a record either. A mixture of alcohol and distilled water was recommended over 40 years or so ago with the KEITH MONKS AUDIO RCMs. Record Cleaning has moved on since then though and Enzyme Agents are now the best and safest fluids to use in conjunction with laboratory grade deionised/distilled water. Condition, of course, always matters and I am talking here of strictly graded NM/M- records which essentially should be like new. It might be a good idea to take a few of your records to a competent and professional cleaning service to hear for yourself? All I can tell you is that I clean records for a few serious collectors around my location and they have told me that they are 'shell shocked' at the improvements. One collector told me that his records sounded better than when they were new after they had been with me. Seriously, the advances in record cleaning over the past ten years has raised the bar to a level that I never imagined possible. I can't stop buying records because of it!
New ultrasonic owner here. I got a VPI 16.5 earlier this year, and have been very happy with that machine. Decided to add an ultrasonic cleaner, to my regimen. I got one of the 10L tanks off ebay and the VinylStack unit. I have been using this ultrasonic unit for about 2 weeks now, and have had fantastic results. I'm using either distilled or RO water, and just dump it after 2 days. I have not noticed a difference between the two types of water, so ill just use RO water going forward. There is a water place next to my work, I get RO water for forty cents a gallon. I use 4 drops of photo flo and 2 drops of clear dish detergent, which I found over on the VPI forums. I have been doing 2 revolutions in 10 minutes. After the ultrasonic clean, I run them through my usual 2 step VPI regimen which consists of VinylZyme followed by a rinse. VinylStack is very well designed, it makes the ultrasonic regimen easy and pain free. I look forward to experimenting with the ultrasonic and different fluid formulations.
Curious, is 10L the preferred tank size to DIY an ultra sonic set up? I was starting to settle on a 6L while planning out my build, but I also have seen 10L used. Thanks!
The folks at Vinyl Stack advise the 10L for the 4 records at a time kit, and the 6L for the 3 at a time kit. The spacing on these kits is one inch. With 4 at a time, there is plenty of room in the tank so they are being conservative with their recommendations. I’m not sure what the proper spacing should be? Price difference is minimal between the 6 L in the 10 L tank. All in, Vinyl Stack and the tank cost me $415.
Strange thing I’ve notice, on some records after cleaning the sound was louder. I’m not sure I understand why. Has anyone else experienced this?
How can you tell there's a difference if you clean the record straight away without test playing them first? That was my point - you're experimenting without a control. I've cleaned more than 400 records now with USC and on used records it's a lottery in terms of which ones are cured of all ticks and pops - some are invisibly damaged, not just dirty, and USC won't fix those.
I have been around cleaning vinyl records for over 40 years now, starting with a Keith Monks Audio RCM in 1978! I know the night and day difference between a brand new uncleaned record and one that is just brand new. Exclude Japanese pressings from that last statement as they do not need pre-cleaning in the way that vinyl from other countries does, when brand new. I have never heard records that sound so clean and free of noise as I do now. As to used vinyl records, you have to buy right. I do not consider anything that is below NM usually and most of my used purchases are Japanese anyway in amazing, like new condition. Obviously, if you buy a good cross section of used records from multiple sources, your experience may well differ. In addition, I will not purchase vinyl pressed by shoddy pressing facilities and I guess we all know who they are? No cleaning process can ever resolve something like 'non fill' which is very common these days, unfortunately. This means that I have to forego some vinyl releases but I have no desire to play, let alone listen to, defective vinyl records. That is just my take on things, others will take a different view from mine. I just cleaned an original U.K. issue of the Kinks 'Arthur' LP (first 1969 U.K. pressing on the Pye label) and first issues (U.K.) of a number of Grateful Dead albums including 'American Beauty', for a very serious collector in the past few days. The customer called me today to tell me that there is a total absence of noise, clicks and pops on all of these albums and he is absolutely delighted. Of course, if you want to be 'scientific' about it you could go right ahead and set up a controlled type of 'before and after' project, if you want to establish a position on this. For me, I know and trust my ears and I just want to enjoy music without extraneous noise. I have that with my cleaning regimen for over five years now.
was it RO, or RODI water that he was discussing? RODI when set up properly generally yields zero tds water. What should be remembered is that the type of input water is important. If using chlorinated city water, the user may need to add a de-chlorinization filter to the RODI system in order to make “perfect” water... good site to reference is Welcome to AquaFX - The Leaders in Reverse Osmosis They have forgotten more about water quality than most of us will ever know.
Our local Whole Foods hosts a water dispensary with a DI plus RO option. While not as pure as the purest lab grade water, it’s perfect for my ultrasonic RCM. Only $1.50 per gallon. They provide 3 gallon plastic jugs of the kind that prevents light degradation. The plastic is a light blue color marked 7 on the bottom. Highly recommend if you can’t filter your own.
This is where we start to go off the rails. The world is flat. You shouldn't vaccinate. Kubrick did the moon landing. Obama bugged the White House. Deckard is a replicant. You only need a Crosley to play records. US cleaning ruins records.
RO water is what I now use as well. Got tired of hauling gallons of distilled water from Walmart. I have one of those “fill up your own jug “water places by my work that sells DI+RO water for $.40 a gallon. They showed me their filtration room and it was quite impressive, plus they will show your their TDS log. The 3 gallon jug is what I use as well, not to heavy when full.
Just got my Ultrasonic put together this morning... cranked on the RODI unit in the garage and made 3 gallons of 0 TDS water... added it to the RCM and added the cleaning formula, put 2 records on it and ran it @ 40 degrees c for 20 minutes at nearly full volume... I found that the records are spinning faster than I’d expect so I’m ordering an adjustable power supply for the motor that spins the records. Let the records air dry for about 5 minutes while still spinning, then vacuumed with the old nitty gritty, popped the albums into mofi sleeves and dated the cleaning on a post it. BTW the first few were $3 bin finds, I popped one on the TT and it sounds fantastic Lots o crud in the bottom of the tank
