Hi @pacvr, appreciate the guidance as always. Three discussion items for today: 1) I am using the "Harmsco PP-S-1 Water Filter Cartridge 1 Micron Absolute Poly-Pleat Whole House Filtration" (link below). Please let me know if you think that is a poor choice. The gaskets appear to be in place. I am still seeing almost no pressure reading on the gauge during operation. I have tested the gauge by temporarily blocking the outlet flow, and the gauge reads the pressure increase instantaneously. https://www.amazon.com/Harmsco-PP-S...pd_rd_i=B0091Z3QB0&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_d_rp_1_t 2) I have also moved the draw point to the tank drain. Thank you for that advice. 3) An interesting issue with TDS. Prior to moving to the filtration system, my TDS readings always started at zero when loading the initial distilled water/IPA/tergitol mixture, and the TDS would increase > 0 only after multiple repeated record washings. However, now WITH the filtration system, after the first cycle of the filter the TDS reading jumps to around 11, and then increases a few units after each record wash / filter cycle. Eg. to 13/14 after only 2 records being washed. Shouldn't the filter be working in reverse, meaning removing the dissolved solids, not adding to them? Do I have a more fundamental problem, or is this normal? Cheers! Pete
Here is the cut-sheet for your 1-micron absolute filter - Harmsco-Poly-Pleat-Cartridges-Spec-Sheet.pdf (home-water-purifiers-and-filters.com). Its a good filter and has very low pressure drop when new - <0.5 psi @ 1.5 gpm. So when new, the pressure gauge is going to read close to zero. Although not specified, these thermally bonded polypropylene are good for at least 25 psi. WRT TDS, the filter removes only suspended solids - not dissolved solids such as salts or metal ions. Its not normal for the "total dissolved solids" to jump the way it and then steadily increase after every record batch did unless there was some residual soluble contamination from some of the new filter system components. The 1-micorn filter element should not be the source of the ionic impurities. I suspect that the hoses & the canister and maybe the pump may not have been very clean (when new) and the new brass-T used to install the gauge maybe adding metal ions (new bright brass will do this until it builds up a thin dull adherent corrosion layer that protects it). Dump the bath & refresh. If the tank has a heater - energize and let the cleaner get to about 110-115F and run the filter system for about 2-hrs. During this time measure the TDS every 30 min - you want to see the TDS level off, so that there is essentially no increase after 30 min. If after 2-hrs TDS its still steadily increasing; something is wrong - and we will need to go through a process of elimination to identify the source such as remove the gauge & T fitting, does that stop the TDS rise, if not, remove the filter element - does that stop the TDS rise. Neil
Old thread, I know. But I was looking for someone else who noticed this. SUPER NOOB with vinyl. Got a Spin Clean to clean the albums I gathered when cleaning out my parent's house. Collection is theirs as well as my great-aunt's, so 50s-80s. Most are in VG condition, which is great. Bought an ultrasonic cleaner off eBay (don't have the $$ or desire to spend 4k on a cleaning machine). But after doing my first batch in the ultrasonic and listening to The Nylon Curtain (recent purchase, didn't listen prior to cleaning), the higher frequencies sound harsh. Especially cymbals. IDK if this is just the mix, or if I messed something up, or a negative result of US cleaning. I used fresh distilled water with 20 drops of Turgi-Kleen, then rinsed clean with plain distilled water and wiped dry with the cloths that come with the Spin Clean. For reference, my system is a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon EVO with the Sumiko Rainier cart. This goes into a Denon receiver I've had for years, and my speakers are Paradigm Mini-Monitors.
Yes, this is what I heard and I am still hearing it. There might be three reasons that I can think of (not that there might be hundreds of other reasons): a) I am just imagining it. b) The ultrasonic cleans so effectively the grooves that high frequencies are revealed in all their glory and this, depending on the system, makes them come up as brittle and harsh. So it is a fault with the specific system, not with the ultrasonic. I do not believe this to be true as I know very well how my system sounds, however, it is a very good argument. c) The ultrasonic cleaning is doing something negative to the record and to how it sounds. We can argue about this all day long going back and forth and nobody is going to be persuaded to change its mind. In my opinion, unless I see scientific research that proves that ultrasonic cleaning is not harmful to the record, I am a little skeptical about it. Not negative, not against it, just sceptical.
The records are restored in all their glory, minus wear and tear, which never sounds as good as brand new. If the record is brand new, never played, and the highs still come out sounding harsh there's probably something else at fault for it. Worn stylus, misalignment, insufficient VTF, bad recording or mastering. Many records from the later '80s sounded harsh to begin with owing to poor digital implementation. There are many reasons for it, but I believe wear and tear revealed in all its glory is the main culprit. If it was the cavitation at fault people wouldn't be falling over themselves singing its praises.
Its the old saying - the devil is in the details. Some questions: 1. How big is your UT tank - i.e, how many gallons or liters? 2. How many records are you cleaning at once? 3. How fast are the records rotating - i.e. rpm? 4, How many records are you cleaning before refreshing the bath? Understand Tergikleen - Its a blend of two nonionic surfactants – Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-3 (not water soluble) and Tergitol™ 15-S-9 (water soluble). Tergitol™ 15-S-3 is a hydrocarbon emulsifier and in water can act as a defoaming agent. Not being soluble, Tergitol™ 15-S-3 does not act as wetting agent. If your tank is 6 liter, then 20 drops = ~1 mL/6000 mL = ~166 ppm. 50% of this is Tergitol 15-S-9 and you get a wetting agent but not much more. The non-soluble 15-S-3 makes Tergikleen difficult to rinse and residue is often left behind. So when you say you rinse - what does that mean? Cotton cloths while they are very absorbent, they can shed lots of lint. There is lint-free cotton cloths, they are used in Cleanrooms, but they are triple washed with a powered detergent and do not stay lint-free forever. Once you wash those cotton towels with a liquid detergent, some detergent is left in the cloth and it will transfer to the surface being dried - i.e. the record. Depending on how many records you are cleaning at once and the record rotation rpm, you may cancel any benefit of UT because of too much fluid agitation. All this is discussed in a book you can download for free - at the end of this article -Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-2nd Edition - The Vinyl Press, the details are in Chapters VIII, IX and XIV. For USA I recommend straight Tergitol 15-S-9 at about 0.01 to 0.015% (100-150 PPM) assuming no rinse or 0.025 to 0.05% (250-500 ppm) if you are going to rinse. You can buy straight Tergitol 15-S-9 here - Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9 Surfactant | TALAS (talasonline.com). You want to spin slowly - see the details Chapter XIV.5 in the book. Most people after UT will generally let the record air dry. Some with vacuum RCM will do final rinse/dry with the vacuum RCM. If you want to manually dry to speed up drying - see Chapter V Steps 10 & 11 of the book. Bath management of a UT tank needs to be considered. After X # of records that bath will be contaminated with a lot of particulate. Some just replace the bath after X # of records; some install pump/filter systems to extend the bath life - beginning Chapter XIV.14 there is a discussion of pump/filter systems you can add. FWIW - UT works by during what is called the ultrasonic rarefaction phase, the pressure drops below the fluid vapor pressure and essentially the fluid boils creating a bubble and over a period of rarefaction/compression cycles the bubble that is formed grows until the surrounding hydraulic pressure violently collapses it. The cavitation bubble duration is very short - about 4 milliseconds - check this video starting at about time 6:20 https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ul ... %3DHDRSC3; Otherwise, parts such as elastomers (O-rings) and plastic components have been cleaned with UT for >50-yrs. There is no evidence that 35kHz and above will damage these parts or the record using reasonable care. You can overheat the record if you have a powerful unit and you do not spin (at any speed) and leave in static position for many minutes. Otherwise the KL Audio (40 kHz) and the Degritter (120 kHz) are the most powerful because they have a small bath volume, and powerful ultrasonics that are aligned directly at the record which provides the best cleaning and they can be very effective with just DIW. The DIY UT tanks have bottom firing transducers and these do not have the same effectiveness so some chemistry can make up the difference. But, as I said above - the devil is in the details. Good Luck,
First, thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed reply. I'll be reading that book this weekend. My US (UT?) tank is 6L. I cleaned 3 records spaced about an inch apart. Speed - WAY faster than what everyone else is apparently doing. I'd guesstimate 12 RPM. This is what I have: 6L Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner Cleaning Machine Complete w/Drying Rack 789458211090 | eBay I only cleaned the 3 records - 2 were recent purchases, one was already in my collection but noisy. Billy Joel "The Stranger" which even after being cleaned in the Spin Clean has so many pops and crackles they should be listed in the credits. The 2 recent purchases were BJ "The Nylon Curtain" and Jackson Browne "Running on Empty". RoE sounds great after the US cleaning (though it may have before hand, but I clean used albums before listening) and it cleaned up some of the noise from The Stranger. It seemed to open the soundstage a bit on for that one as well. My rinse was distilled water in my Spin Clean, with the brushes but no cleaning solution. Rotated 10 times in each direction like I was cleaning it. Then a wipe with the included cloths and allowed to finish air drying before going into new sleeves. "Who cares about chemistry and physics" I foolishly thought in high school. "I'll never really USE this cr@p". SMH. Little did I know then about the glories of guitar tube amps and vinyl.
If you are cleaning 3 records at a time, you want the rpm to be not more than 1 rpm otherwise the spinning records will develop enough flow to significantly affect the cavitation intensity. From the book Chapter XIV.5 "...if the rotating speed develops a flow rate equal to 1/2 the tank volume per minute, cavitation intensity will decrease and maximum benefit of ultrasonics will not be obtained.". In your case, with 3 records & 12 rpm the cavitation intensity in the tank is likely reduced by >5o% and maybe as high as 75%. FYI - lower frequency UT tanks are much more susceptible to affect of flow than high frequency such as >120kHz. Edit; for your spin-motor you should be able to slow the motor down by using a DC motor speed controller such as RioRand 7-70V PWM DC Motor Speed Controller Switch 30A - - Amazon.com. Others on this site have done similar - lets see what they may say such as @Ripblade.
@pacvr I'm assuming I have to wire that into the motor somehow? As far as I know, this UT is operating at 40 Hz.
The DC motor controller would be wired into the 120vac/24vdc power supply DC output cable to the motor. The 24vdc wire to the motor should be just a 2-wire cable. You should be able to just cut the cable and wire into the DC motor controller. The output from the 120vac/24vdc power supply is the Input to the DC motor controller and the Output of the DC motor controller goes to the spin-motor. EDIT - As another option, you should be able to reduce the spin speed by using a lower voltage power supply such as 120vac/3vdc - just try to keep the power (watts) nearly the same. The motor when it starts has an initial in-rush current. EDIT - This should work - but only goes down to 3vdc - Amazon.com: SHNITPWR 3V ~ 24V 3A 72W Power Supply Adjustable DC 3V 5V 6V 9V 12V 15V 16V 18V 19V 20V 24V Variable Universal AC/DC Adapter 100V-240V AC to DC Converter with 14 Tips 5.5x2.5mm 4.0x1.7mm 3.5x1.35mm: Electronics. Send a question to the UT tank manufacture (via Amazon) and ask him. The UT is operating at 40 kHz. Just about all these lower cost units operate at 40 kHz. Power wise, its pretty common - three 60W transducers (for a total of about 180W) bottom firing. Be careful with the noise, if loud wear hearing protection. Even though its operating at 40 kHz there are lower frequency harmonics - if it sounds loud or annoying - recommend wear hearing protection.
I had been looking at that, actually. And yes, when I started it up I noticed it was rather loud. Let it run while I was in my office a safe distance away. Came back down when the annoying sound ended.
Not sure if the UT tank you bought says to, but whenever you fill the tank with fresh water/cleaner - you must degas. Degas - essentially you operate the unit for ~10 minutes with no records. This releases the air bubbles that are in the liquid. If you do not degas, the air bubbles that are in the liquid will absorb the ultrasonic energy and you essentially get no cavitation. Cavitation in an UT tank does not produce bubbles - you should see only a distortion/shimmering of the fluid.
I run a degas cycle for 10 minute before I start any cleaning session. Since I am normally adding a little water to top things off I want to eliminate all the air bubbles.
Does a tank of fluid need to be degassed after a week undisturbed in the tank if it has already been degassed?
If the tank is not covered and exposed to the air - yes. Water will absorb air/CO2 from the environment. If you do not degas, its pretty easy to check - when you start the UT is there a bunch of bubbles - other than the few that released from the record. FWIW - absorbed CO2 will also create a weak acid - carbonic acid. If you are only using non-ionic fluids i.e., water, alcohol and non-ionic surfactant and are monitoring the tank with a TDS meter, you will see the increase in TDS.
OK, trying this again. Degassed my distilled water. Using straight Tergitol 15-S-9 at about 100 PPM (if I did my math correctly, that is). Got my rotation down to 1 RPM. Tank is at 40C. Fingers crossed.
40C (105F) is the high side of temp; 35C (95F) is generally the safer temp. 100 ppm Tergitol = 0.01%. So for a 6L (6000 mL) tank, the quantity would be (0.0001)(6000) = 0.6 mL. If you first prepared a 1% solution of Tergitol = 10-mL Tergitol/1L DIW, then to get 0.01% in the 6L UT tank with 1% Tergitol™ 15-S-9; add = (0.0001/0.010) x (6000 mL) = 60 mL. (PS, I showed this cal to show the math holds). Good Luck
I was reading Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-2nd Edition - The Vinyl Press, and it states "XIV.2.a Temperature: For water, beyond about 40°C/104°F, the cavitation intensity can decrease. But, for lower kHz (60-kHz) cleaning efficiency can increase by about 10% up to about 60°C/140°F."
I shoot for no more than 30°C in my tank. Anything higher and you can see standard weight vinyl start to warp...to a less degree heavyweight vinyl.
Both my tanks, wash and rinse, vary between 30°C and 35°C and after washing over 500 records I have never seen an LP of any weight warp. 40°C may be pushing it but 35 is not.
I clean 3 records at a time in my US cleaner at 1 rotation every 10 minutes. I do 3 rotations (30 minutes) to 40c temp. Have gone up to 45c (unintentionally) with no negative effects.
The cleaning efficiency effect was written in relation to general industrial UT tank cleaning of parts that can handle that temperature and was not written exclusive for vinyl records.
