My first job after completing my apprenticeship, was a Calibration Engineer sharing a room with Engineers working in the Standards lab. Once I left that job to sell Hi-Fi, the measuring devices that worked best for me, were the ones on either side of my head. I don't actually know many of the specs of the turntables I demonstrated and installed, but spent my money on the one that sounded best to my ears. Any printed spec or someone else's opinion was totally irrelevant to me. For over 30 years I never had buyer's remorse. I hope everyone is delighted with their choice. Happy listening!
The $300 cartridge will likely sound better on the more expensive TT than the $1800 cartridge on the cheaper one. Actually something like an AT95SH is quite a valid match on a 1200G. If your budget is limited get the 1200G with the cheaper cartridge. You can always upgrade later.
Precisely. Whereas sound is not a type of music. My point is that you can spend a lot of money on cartridges to get a particular 'sound', but that may not have a big effect on the reproduction of music. I'm recommending spending on a system's ability to reproduce music, not just sound. Imagine that two decks 'sound' about the same, but one has less wow. The one with less wow will probably reproduce music better, because the melodies, harmonies and rhythms will be easier to follow. You could have a situation where one deck is better at reproducing sound effects credibly, but the other makes it easier to enjoy music. In fact, I think this happens quite often. This is why I think money is better spent on the deck and arm than a cartridge, given a limited budget.
Technics also published a FG spec of 0.01% wrms. Edit: That's for the old ones. The new don't have it but the JIS is the same, so is it safe to assume the FG is the same, too?
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't amused by the irony of a thread with a title like this that goes on to spawn 25 pages and counting
I'm sure there is. Alas at 25 pages (and counting) and not owning either a Technics nor Rega turntable, you'll forgive me for not reading through it all
Before I got a Technics I didn't know there was a Technics vs Rega thing on here, only when I looked up advice on Technics did I see it mentioned in threads here. I'd never had a Rega either.
Well, I think more accurately it is Technics vs everything else, it's just that Rega is one of the most visible brands that isn't Technics, and since one only makes DD tables, and the other only makes BD tables, by extension it becomes DD vs BD. Kind of a tired topic, but always popular, I'm just here for the snacks
Yes to that. My tweaked Systemdek was creating some amazing sounds in isolation, but the motor controller was in a downward spiral and spoiling its game so I switched back to my more 'upbeat' Walker deck. I was just about to change the 2m Blue MM on the Walker to a higher spec Corus Black (Gyger S) when I made more key changes to the decks chassis (adding alloy bracing to the sub chassis and metal feet to the plinth, plus arm cable change to the Ittok). Amazingly still with the battle weary 2m fitted, the sound change was akin to swapping out a cosy budget Arcam Alpha amp for a silver buffer Naim pre-power such was the enhanced projection of sounds off record. However, there were still a few other issues to be ironed out with the total sound spectrum. This shows that the Turntable/cartridge combination can have the analogy of the 'Princess and the Pea', the cartridge being the princess detecting the 'pea' of a glitch or a modification umpteen layers down inside the turntable structure and quite a distance from the stylus suspension. My Gyger S will have to wait a little longer until I get the Walker fine tuned again! Perfect pitch is a key component, but I also find that how musical a deck sounds can be as much down to the interplay of LF resonances off the record and through the arm/chassis as much as control of the motor(s).
It is so easy for a dealer, or a GR and G owner getting together to do the comparison with good, reasonably priced cartridges in the G compared to a top cartridge in the GR The sound vs music thing, is possibly why some hear subtle, or no differences yet others big improvements. Melodies, harmonies and rhythms, rather important musical information, are rarely massively improved by a cartridge, but certainly can be with a better turntable, power supply and arm.
I did check into your suggestion, the SL-1210 GR Turntable seems a good price $2,399 and would suffice handily , the Linn was a little more at $3,750.00 CDN, although I sheepishly admit that when I looked at the rear connection jacks I haven't the foggiest idea what any of them are .. I'm used to plain RCA Phono-Jacks. The last time I priced the Linn LP12 turntable/arm complete it was exactly $2,000.00 brand new so I'd imagine that's awhile back as the new one is $12,500 I believe . I'm just grasping at straws here trying to get a handle on the basics and find it rather over whelming. A lot of the time I find I take two-steps back for every one step forward. I see a lot of folk's touting the marvels of $300 phono pre-amps .. I just don't know what is accurate and what is not so I'm just trying to sort it all out which will take sometime ..
I’d get the most expensive table I could afford, worry about the cartridge later. Some really great sounding low priced cartridges out there. And when you do upgrade the cartridge, it will have more of a “ wow” factor.
Good advice. I've noticed recently that more people are recommending turntable "mullets" - too much expenditure on the cartridge and not enough on the deck/arm. I don't know if this is because they are new to vinyl or because they don't listen to music in the same way as others. Sometimes it's because people listen for sounds, not music, and end up with impressive but confusing and tiresome systems. You can run a mullet, but it's a house built on sand from the point of view of long term musical satisfaction.
Whoops - sorry - a bit strong in a 4K CDN budget. I was thinking in pounds. You can pick up a new Uphorik for £2160 in the UK. Bearing in mind that my used SL-1210 Mk5 cost me £100, my tone-arm retails at £1500, the combination I suggested would have come in at under £4K. However, it's harder to find 1200s at £100 these days, even with a broken arm. I've no doubt that the new 1200s are better than the old ones, but I'm not sure by how much once you put the old power supply in a separate box. Just food for thought, anyway.
I can sympathise with this. There are no easy answers, but to go listen, then listen some more, sleep on it then listen to yet more. Eventually a pattern will form into what components you want to hear. Separate phono amps can also raise another dimension in what connecting leads to use, but you’ll get the hang of that as well as you swap around leads. I have fallen on harder times at the moment so have stepped back to basic integrated amps with good phono stages built in, at least until I sort out what kind of turntable sound / musical ability I want to hear (and I’ve come back from a full on Roksan Xerxes with MC, phono amp and pre-power to start all over again!) But I’m just mad that way. Like the man said; “don’t over complicate things”. Get the best deck you can as a starting point and build on that adding other components to it. But if you don’t have time for all that you could just seek out a dealer who can put together good working packages around your favoured decks for you to start with. Thirty years ago I found that a good ‘independent’ dealer (who had also worked in the live music industry) was a godsend who unravelled much of the confusion and discarded much of the nonsense/hype in things I had read, although much reading is a good starting point. Unfortunately the number of that sort of dealer is now few here in old Blighty. The internet has changed many things for both good and bad. If a dealer can’t demonstrate why things sound different look elsewhere. I don’t know how isolated you are from dealers/cities, but get the impression that Ontario is not the most remote of the territories albeit is the only state in Canada I have driven across (and through a Tornado one night.....scary!). Good luck on your quest!
The new fangled Pioneer PLX-1000 quotes: Wow and Flutter < 0.01 % (Measured by obtaining signal from built-in frequency generator of motor assembly.)
Thank You for your help and for mentioning that an Integrated amp with a good phono-stage would suffice, that sounds wonderful ... any suggestions as to brands ?? the retail choices here are an old established place with a tech/service Dept. and staff to rival NASA (Reliable) vs. the more exotic, esoteric dealers with brand names that I've basically never heard of .... I've narrowed down which brand of Turntable I'm after, now it's just the rest of the components ... only candidates so far are .. SPL Phono Pre-Amp, SPL Headphone Amp/Pre-Amp Combo .. for speakers ? haven't the foggiest idea (small place, condo, can't enjoy 120dB concert SPL's and I'd rather have detail and definition above all, Quality over quantity) and Power and or Pre. amps? ... Bryston is close by but the prices have gone through the roof .. no real budget .. but I'm a middle of the road guy, recently replaced our family vehicle and bought Nissan and not Lexus, Accura, Benz, etc. I like good but not insanely exotic and expensive audio equip ... but I heed you advice, go to stores and listen ..
I can’t really give you much advice apart from what I said before unless I know more about your choices. Without trying to be flippant, it’s a bit like telling me that you will buy ‘a car’ and have asked me which tires to fit. Is it a Mini, a Chrysler 300, or a Ferrari 458? Which turntable brand are you set on and why? More important are the type and quality of the vinyl you will play on it. My amps are 30 year old classic British integrated’s with built in phono circuits because phono was the heart of the matter and the best input back then, or possibly because many CD players via line level were still quite poor in comparison. I have an Arcam Delta 90.2 and an Ion Obelisk 2, but both were bought used and the output caps are due to flunk out soon due to old age. I have a more exotic Danish Densen B-100 integrated and separate Densen MC drive I bought together for £950 in 1997, but that amp also needs a recap now and my expensive MC cartridge was damaged! An equivalent new B-130 amp was £2350 last time I looked. One of my friends uses his old Systemdek with a tiny ‘fatman’ idock valve amp fed with a basic budget Project phono box II to power some old Kef floorstand speakers and it wipes the floor with many vinyl systems I have heard. The only new phono integrated’s I know the sound of now are Rega and Arcam, but built in phonos are usually MM only. MCs tend to work better with separate phono boxes. You mention Bryston, but they are more high end in my book and demand very good source components. I’m more of a buy an expensive Linn and play it through a cheap and cheerful little amp kind of guy. It works in a small room! Together with a really good deck, a Rega Brio amp might be all you need in a small condo and a used Arcam A19 or Diva A85 amp with MM phono stage could be a good buy for similar or less money. Then add small to medium sized wide range and detailed sounding speakers of choice. Speakers can actually be the hardest component to decide on so listen to lots with the amp you choose. If I was a gambling man, I would guess that you have seen a Technics 1210GR from your earlier post here and are now ticking some boxes? However there is more to it than that. I know nothing of SPL phono stages or which cartridges work best with them. There are likely to be others on here from that side of the pond who could tell you more. Most of SPL’s phono boxes I see online look a bit more hi-end than a 1210GR!? I would ask the dealer to recommend a demo of what they know works with your chosen level of turntable first. I’m no expert on Technics, but I would also gamble that 1000 dollars wasted on a phono box would be better spent on a better turntable than the GR like a ‘G’ model. But if you are in the market for a 2k deck why not listen to Project’s new X8 and a Rega P6 as well? I would personally like to hear an X8 with a Quintet Bronze MC, but the Quintet Blue might suit your ears and record collection just fine.
PS obviously if I was buying a Brio or A85 amp with built in MM I would be thinking of a ‘2M’ Blue or Bronze rather than a Quintet MC! But an MC could come as later upgrade with an add on phono box. If you are rich, your records are good and want to go MC straight off the bat then there are more amps and phono amps than you can shake a stick at. I would definitely be asking around vinyl experts/dealers for good combinations. I read that the Quintet Blue MC is less critical of old and worn records, but I have yet to try this one for myself.
