To Neutral Speaker, or Not to Neutral Speaker...

I have many different pairs of speakers and have connected them to many different amps.

The bottom line is whether I like the resulting sound or not.

Are any of them "neutral"? I haven't a clue, nor does it make any difference to me.

I never look at charts and graphs, nor do I conduct frequency measurements.

 

Well, my dealer rec and this thread have definitely shown me an alternate way to think about speakers... in the past, it was 100% about finding that elusive 'perfect house sound'. Now I can see that an absence of house sound and "sounding like the recording, whatever that sound is" is a strong option as well.

Doesn't mean that when I audition some ATCs in a few weeks that I'll instantly fall in love... could be that they'll still get beat out by a 'romantic' speaker. But in the past, I had really only seen 'colored vs neutral' as a debate for sources, and maybe amps (and mostly in an SS vs tubes way there).

Certainly makes sense to at least try to have your speakers be neutral. If all three sets of components in the chain (source, amp, speakers) are various kinds of colored, then getting the right sound can be a huge hassle... and that's even before considering room effects. Just too many variables.

Speakers are the most expensive part of the chain for the majority of ppl (aka it's where they tend to spend), so continually swapping them out for something new in one's sound-quest adds up to big $$$ wasted in a hurry. .Having them be the neutral 'anchor' makes sense.

That said, the heart still wants what the heart wants. We'll see what wins out.

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That's definitely an interesting (and clever) data point. Would be quite curious to know which brands were frequently traded-in, and which ones almost never were.

Care to spill at all?
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In the end choosing a system is a trade-off between what you want to have (afford/ possible to acquire) and the recordings you listen to, and making an informed decision about the market influencing consumers to buy the new "best" thing.

Individual auditory perception is an important factor. Some of my friends in this hobby (and dealers) like them details, and the visceral sense of sound projected against you, whereas I only "feel" something trying to pierce my ear drums, and hear the comment oh, it is so neutral and dynamic. Taste is quite individual indeed.

"Neutral" is also dependent on the source material. If you listen to well recorded music then a "neutral" system will make perfect sense and reward your listening experience.

However, if you listen recordings that are less than stellar, but nevertheless have an emotional connection to the music. A "neutral" system would not reward the listening experience but rather remind you how bad the recordings sound. Thus interfere listening to the music and the emotional connection.

This has guided me towards my system today, with one caveat. Taste and hearing change over time. What I like today may not be my taste tomorrow.

 

Damn. You guys want some serious end-game speakers.

Especially CTA. Those things are almost the size of refrigerators, and are about $50K USD (maybe a bit less in Europe).

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That's a fair point. My own hearing is slightly damaged in the midrange I notice (and confirmed by a visit to an ear doc). Too many loud concerts, and kamikaze iPod listening. Sigh.

So, speakers and systems with recessed mids and/or overemphasized bass and treble (in order to sound 'impressive') tend to leave me cold. Though, truth to tell, I was always a fan of midrange 'rightness' uber alles, even before I incurred any damage.

Key takeaway: Be aware of your own personal hearing quirks when figuring out your system.
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I'm with those guys, I think that if you fall for ATCs then you are going to like bigger ones and actives even more, I think 50s may be the limit for my room so newer actives are likely my end game.

 

Well to be fair brands that sell more will likely be traded more. And we don't know specifically what they were traded for - other than what the dealer tells you. Although, the dealer I had was honest, often humorously so. I remember listening to some very expensive speakers from a famous brand (although not for speakers) and listened for about 1/2 hour in their dedicated room and it was so-so and I came out to the main room and the salesman asks me from across the room "what did you think?" And being diplomatic I said "they're ok" and he was hoping I would have said they were absolute junk. Why? Because the rep for the speaker brand was standing at the counter doing paperwork. He thought it would have been hilarious. So not your average dealer.

I remember another time I was in and I mentioned that a speakers was pretty darn good being driven with a world famous tube amp brand and the owner of the shop said "They were better when they weren't a soulless corporation." Hey they have to eat. They carry the stuff they like to listen to and they carry stuff that Stereophile says is good because they need to sell stuff.

I asked Terry how he could sell brands he didn't like much himself and he said that if he doesn't sell it the competition will. It is a business after all. And he noted that a good 90% of everyone who walks through the door have been pre-sold - the press, the looks, the brand appeal, price points, WAF etc. And if you try and tell someone hey instead of spending $1800 on Speaker X - we carry this lesser known speaker that you may find to sound quite a bit better and it's only $1500 - people get angry that you are hard selling them. So let people decide what they like - zero sales pressure and take their credit card. Then in 6 months they come back to trade it in and then they may ask questions.

I did like Terry - he would carry the lines you needed to carry to keep the lights on and you could justify those lines as the home theater stuff - B&W, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Totem and carry the surround receivers and of course Anthem and Bryston being from Canada as upper level H/T. And then some higher efficiency stuff and SET amps and tube amps. This kind of dealer is few and far between then and certainly now.

 

Indeed, this can't be said enough. I teach English at a weak public school. What I mean by weak is that high schools in Hong Kong are "banded" into three levels. Band 1,2 ,3. So all students right a test at the end of elementary school and the students with the top marks can apply to band 1 schools. The worst results go to a band 3 school. I teach at a band 3 school but one where the kids who get kicked out of other band 3 schools come to us.

Last week I was using a TV series on "Learn English with Lady Gaga" and they have ones for Ariana Grande, BTS, Taylor Swift and also Queen, Guns N Roses and moves etc. And my lesson expanded to having students learn about musical instruments and how to have basic conversations about music.

But it struck me how taste in music changes and an extension of that is also the kind of equipment for that playback. So I showed the class examples of various types of music - (as they have a complete lack of exposure to anything outside their tiny bubble) so classical, jazz, salsa, R&B, heavy metal they rarely hear or they don't put it together. My first concert was Motley Crue. Classical was BOOOORING when I was a teen. The speaker I was saving my McDonald's money for was the Cerwin Vega D9! That thing was soooo cooool dude. Indeed, compared to goofball Sound bars that cost more - the D9 is still sooooo cooool!

 

Since the room the speakers are in is a major player in their performance, there really isn't any neutrality, from the speaker or the room.

 

Many ppl have mentioned that in the thread, but I'd assume that most audiophiles would play with speaker positioning and/or room treatments in such a way as to minimize obvious room effects.

Not to say it's still not a factor, but, not automatically an overriding one.
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As for what brands are "end game" and don't get traded?
Hard to say----and I worked in audio for 35 years.
My own plan that I followed after retiring and designing a "keeper" system---was simply to buy a pair of the very best midrange transducers and then add subs and a super tweeter to put them in a large room.
Then, when I move to the old folks home and live in one room I will ditch all the extras and run just the main boxes.
I was DETERMINED to buy ONCE and keep for life, if possible.
I hate "upgrading" with a passion beyond belief.
"Upgrading" is an insult to my intelligence as it means I bought the wrong "widget" and I am an expert so that makes me a dummy.
For me, those midranger killers turned out to be Harbeth.
This with Velodyne and SVS subs (four) and a pair of $1500 Townshend super tweeters have allowed me to "tune" the system within an inch of its life.
So far this pile of "boxes" has functioned well in different rooms from medium to somewhat large (20x40).
It is perfectly neutral.
It is so well tuned you just forget all about equipment and just play recordings one after another.
No more "fiddling" or "upgrades" ever required.
I can leave it for five years at a time and nothing ever burns out, at least so far all I broke in 20 years was a Harbeth woofer got toasted from running too small an SS amp which clipped and blew the driver!
Otherwise, it is DONE.
EVERYTHING sounds wonderful through it and I can judge recordings dependably and accurately.
It is in fact "perfect."
I have never heard sound like this in my life at any price.
Plus it has fit every room I tried---as I moved it three times into different size and shaped rooms.
Tuning subs is not for the faint of heart.
It required all my skills after building sets for the rich and famous.
Nice to build one for the home team finally.
Oh yes, the set goes pretty darn flat from around 23 hZ to about 50,000 which I have to take on faith as the Townshends run to 100,000hz.
The first time I tuned it to run in an odd shaped room it took five years of hard work every day to squeeze every last drop of neutrality out of it.
A ridiculous amount of time for someone else---but I tuned systems for a living all those years and I am obsessed with proper tuning.
These speakers sizzle with excitement when that is what is on the record.
They purrs smoothly when the record purrs.
They punch like a sledgehammer when you play Disco.
Hey, my wife LOVES the damn thing! (More then ME?).

My two cents.

 

32k EUR give or take. You only live once. Well not really, but who's to say I'll be into music/audio this much during my next life.
I think at the latest in about 3 years I'll have the proper dedicated room for a pair of active 150 towers. I'll still keep my current chain as it is, it is a great passive chain.

 

From my experience: It depends on what you are chasing in terms of looking for a "neutral" speaker. If we take "neutral" to be essentially a low distortion speaker with very flat frequency response at the listening position, then that can have some sonic benefits, e.g. an evenness of sound were certain frequencies are not routinely emphasized (and for instance well recorded instruments and voices will sound balanced). Essentially a balanced sound from top to bottom.

But if one is looking for "neutral" in the sense that a speaker "doesn't have an identifiable sound of it's own" and it's just a pure chameleon reproducing all the varieties of life-like sound available in recordings, then that type of "neutral" doesn't exist to my ears. By that I mean: every speaker to my ears has a sound, a voice, that colors everything it plays. Doesn't matter whether it's a Revel speaker, Magico, or flat studio monitor, once I hear voices, or drum cymbals, or acoustic guitar, or trumpets etc through that speaker, I pretty much know what those things will sound like form then on. So as I live with a "neutral" speaker the "surprise" wears off pretty quickly and it really ends up as one flavor over the last one I picked. And so it defaults to the same subjective criteria "Do I like how voices and other instruments sound through these?" And sometimes I prefer the sound of music through a slightly less neutral speaker.

So pursuing "neutrality" in my experience is no panacea for finding satisfaction. You may indeed end up liking a neutral speaker more than a colored speaker, but it will be just as subjective a call.

HOWEVER, some people have the goal of "fidelity" in the sense of the greatest accuracy to the signal, so all reproduction elements in the chain ought to have as little distortion and as much neutrality as possible, and then they are more likely to hear with fidelity "what the recording sounds like." And they don't worry in this way about finding a speaker whose "tone" they like.
So long as the measurements satisfy their criteria they don't worry and if they don't like the sound of many recordings, well, fine, blame the recordings..."I just want to hear what they sound like." Whereas others are seeking to increase as much as possible their musical enjoyment which may mean a colored speaker fulfills that role.

So no matter how you go, you are making a subjective call as to what kind of sound you want, what you will put up with, and why.

For me, I tend to like speakers that hue pretty neutral - I don't want to be aware of gross-level colorations - but I'm happy with any deviation that increases the impression of an "organic" realistic sound. (I favor my Conrad Johnson Tube amps, for instance, for this factor). I'm not concerned that this defeats the concept of "fidelity to the recording" because the level of coloration I'm talking about is utterly swamped by the audible sonic characteristics of any recording. By that I mean, whether I'm listening through my tube amps or a solid state amp, or whether I'm listening to a perfectly neutral speaker or one that deviates somewhat, by far all the relevant artistic elements of a recording remain obvious and audible - the music, the performance, the instruments, all the production choices of reverbs, mixing, everything that separates one recording as different from another remain. I get the message easily.
And if there is any goal that one could reasonably assume from all these artists, it's that the listener has the best chance to enjoy their music.

 

Owning multiple speaker pairs can be an alternative to upgrade-itis. Boredom, rather than poor sound, is often what causes a listener to have wandering ears. So if your storage situation allows, maybe consider two pairs of $3K speakers as opposed to one $6Kpair. Or buy two pairs of pre-owned $6K speakers for $3K each.

 

Well, that would certainly be a simple solution to the 'romantic vs neutral' speaker issue... buy a pair of EACH!

But, the obvious issue that comes in is $$$ and quality. All else being equal, good $6K speakers should be noticeably superior to good $3K speakers. So if you get one pair of speakers instead of two, an equal cash outlay buys better sound.

This is true even if you go used, since you have to compare apples to apples... i.e. one set of used $6k speakers (that were maybe $10k new), versus two pairs of $3k speakers (that were maybe $5k new).

Maybe it's really about the user's mindset... if you bore easily or love BOTH kinds of sound about equally, get two pairs of speakers. If you're focused on getting the absolute best example of one particular kind of sound, then get one pair.

The latter seems to be more popular, but who's to say what's right for everyone?
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What I think is an interesting observation in the context of this thread is that when I auditioned the Revel F206, I found them relatively close in sound signature to the B&W 702s2. Now the former is a speaker that measures very well, the measurements of the latter are a bit idiosyncratic to say the least.
Dynaudio's & Sonus Faber (and a few others) sounded all very different to those two.

I have no idea whether this was caused by the room, my hearing or something else. But I guess it does prove that measurements don't tell you everything about how you'll perceive the sound in any given setup.

 

In these price brackets, I find the more expensive pairs will often only yield improvement in a couple areas at the expense of others. They might give you a little more detail or bass texture at the expense of overall musicality. Often, where a $10K speaker significantly outclasses a $5K speaker is in bass quality. However, an alternative is to get some good standmounts with subs and potentially have better overall sound than the floorstanders, because you'd have active bass foundations that are built better (even a $600 sub can be higher quality) than the woofer in a $10K floorstander.

Me, I prefer to quench the boredom with less costly speakers, partly because I've heard even $30K speakers that are rather boring, i.e. clinical.

Another option is to get a colorful speaker that performs poorly on paper but costs you a premium because it has some boutique caps, silver wiring, and was blessed by an Austrian monk.

 

I am just stunned that there shall be ‘neutral’ speakers. What shall that be (definitely no Linn or ATC).
What for one person is neutral, will not be at all for another person.
Japanese (example) have a different hearing from Europeans. Americans will look for more bass, as the
houses are built from wood (eats up the bass) vs. stone/brick in Europe.

Forget the idea of neutral speakers, not even your room sounds neutral.

 

But you are not comparing apples to apples new or used. The fact that one speaker is $6k and another is $3k doesn't mean the $6K speaker will sound better. The only time most people (not all) will agree that the $6k speaker sounds better than the $3k speaker is if both speakers are from the same company. So even people who don't like the brand will probably be able to agree that the $6,000 B&W N805 sounds better than the $3k B&W 705. They may not feel it is $3k better but they will probably agree that the 805 is better in that at the very least it has better treble reproduction etc. A big fan of B&W, on the other hand, may very well feel that doubling the price offers "vastly" better performance and will feel that $3k is not only a good deal but a veritable steal of a deal as they may feel it is ten times better for only two times the price.

This goes for fans of the house sound of most company lines. I feel the 1.7 from Magnepan is a pretty decent deal - even a good deal for what you get for your $2,000. I am not a Maggie fan but I get it and this speaker plays in a price dominated by $2k speakers that often have the same problems the 1.7 has but without a lot of the strengths. the 3.7 is in the $5500 range last I checked and that is less of a deal because the competition is significantly stiffer. The 20.1 my dealer carried for me was just clocked by speakers in the store at around 1/2 the price for me. But most Maggie fans will feel that each increase in level up the chain is superior and thus very much worth the money.

The difference here is whether or not people are actually living with the speakers or just listening at a dealer or audio show and how much money they actually have. There are so many biases at play and any one of them can affect one's likes or dislikes for a product before they actually listen.

I spent most of my afternoon listening to Rockport Arrakis Speakers ($235,000USD), VTL flagship amplifiers ($150,000 for the 4) and Clearaudio's Statement Turntable V2 turntable $150,000USD (without arm or cartridge). And I never got into asking about the preamp. A nice you composer was testing his new LP - first tester copy and he is one fine Jazz pianist I must say.



And Prior to this I auditioned the ATC SCM 100 And ATC SCM 7 with Metronome sources and both ATC and Parasound JC-5 and A23+ power amplifiers.

SCM 7/ATC amp





ATC and Parasound JC (John Curl) 5 $6k



Point is - get out there and listen for yourself. This was the best experience I have had with all of these lines because Parasound has usually sounded middling at shows and ATC has been a bit of a mixed bag for me. I liked both. The dealer had the older JC 1 monoblocks he was selling at a reduced price because the new ones are out and I was tempted but I have just placed an order for my new preamp and I am in a tax dispute with the government at the moment so if I win that (and I should but you never know) that is a $6,000US up in the air frustration at the moment. The star of the day for people on a sane budget was the A23+ for $1,500 US or so. I've long been looking for a relatively budget SS amplifier that was stable to 2 ohms - which this amp is - and that is dual voltage - which this amp is - and that can drive most any speaker palpably - which this amp does. To be blunt, it wasn't really that audibly different than the JC5 on a relatively short audition even on full tilt Classical. Although I generally find with SS the sound is fairly similar only the ability to play loud with hard to drive speakers is improved. That appears to be the case with Parasound. This is the first time I have enjoyed this brand so I am curious to see if I can wrestle more out of the amplifier with a superior preamp and source.

Strictly speaking though I think if you are looking for more neutral - the active ATCs would be more in this vein - whether you will like the sound more might be up to taste.

 

Yes, I know this. Remember, what I said was, "All else being equal", the $6K speakers should sound better than the $3K ones.

So, that means that both sets of speakers are equally well positioned and set-up. They both are well-matched to the amp in use. They both are among the best choices for said user in their price class, aka very well-matched to the user's needs and tastes (because he did a good job in both cases of researching and listening before buying). And so on.

Think of it this way... more budget = a larger universe of choices. With a $3K budget, you can choose ANY speaker you want priced $3K or below. But with a $6K budget, you can choose from ANY of those, PLUS from all speakers priced from $3K to $6K.

Just by virtue of having a wider variety of options, you should likely be able to find something better with the bigger budget. Though sure, I will agree that price alone is NOT an absolute guarantor of anything. You've also got to put in the legwork.

There are certainly hugely crappy $6K speakers out there. There are magnificent $3K speakers out there. But, all else being equal, you'll try to avoid the crappy and purchase the magnificent in any price class, yes?

Helom came up with the counter argument about how a good cheaper speaker plus a subwoofer might beat out the expensive speaker. Well, sure, maybe. But there again, more $$ = more options. As in, with the bigger budget, you could buy an even better sub to go with your speakers. Or, a pair of subs (which often work better than one). And so on.

Again, I agree that money is no absolute guarantor of anything, by itself. Especially in audio. But again, all else being equal, it can sure help some.

Btw, I like the pics of your listening sessions today... Hong Kong sure does have some fabulous audio stores.
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Hmm... ATC has both a 'Pro' and a 'Consumer' line of speakers.

Any differences to be aware of there?
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their pro line use the SL drivers, are active, etc.

 

Thanks. Some of the consumer line is active as well.
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yes, but they dont have the SL drivers if i recall correctly. but I think they active scm19 might use the same drivers as the scm20 active.

Cannot wait to get a pair of atc scm50 or 150 if funds allow