To RIAA or not RIAA with 78 RPMS, that is the question.

Hey all,

So I have yet another interesting transfer and restoration project to do. One of my customers just handed me a big heavy box full of his grandmother's 78 RPMs.

Most of them are in pretty decent shape. Heck some of them look so mint they might be un-played!

The records range from 1930's to the 1950's. I know that the RIAA curve did not become a standard until around 1954.

So should I transfer these with a pre-amp that allows me to defeat the RIAA curve, or just use something like Amadeus Pro for the mac that can reverse the RIAA curve, and then allow you to apply a preset curve for certain record labels like Decca, Columbia, etc?

I have a nice Grado cartridge and a set of styli on the way. One is 3 mil, and the other is 4 mil. I understand that the really old 1930's records would be best played with the bigger stylus because the grooves are really wide. Back then they played the records with victrolas with those needles that looked more like a nail! If I tracked 'em with a smaller gauge stylus, I would assume it would just ride in the bottom of the groove and play the worn area.

I'm eager to hear others thoughts and suggestions!

Thanks guys!

 

Do what sounds best for you, it'll be different for most records, so it's a case by case situation. For the most part, many will sound fine on RIAA. But you should experiment with them anyhow.
As for the 4 mil, you're best off using that with VERY old records... I'm talking about acoustics from the 1900's. the 3 mil will more than suffice for your 30's-50's records. Are they truncated ellipticals? amongst professionals, that seems to be the weapon of choice, or so to speak.
I'm sure our resident 78 expert, greg1954 will chime in soon

 

Thanks for the reply! I don't know if they are truncated or not. But I also have another project of two Victor Home Recording records from 1933. I could not seem to get much out of the grooves unless I tracked them very heavy at about 5! when I pressed against the cartridge, I heard more sound because it was pushing against the groove wall. That made me think the grooves are really wide and need the bigger gauge stylus. The guys at needledoctor told me I need the 4 mil gauge stylus for those records. I hope so because I just dropped $120.00 for the stylus!

 

Yeah, the 4 mil will be good for those, they usually used a wider groove. Also, if they are on a crinkled/bent laminate type of record, as many home-made recordings are, recording at a slower speed helps. I have a home recording on a cardboard disc that is very bent and crinkled, and instead of destroying it and my needle by tracking it heavily, I just cut the speed to 39 RPM, and it tracked perfectly. Works great on rare but warped vinyl too, at 16 rpm. If you're recording to digital, just speed up the file twice as fast, if recording to tape, just record at half the desired speed as well during the transfer.

 

how would I get my turntable to play at 39 RPM? I have a Audio Technica Audio Technica ATLP120 USB. It does have a pitch control, but no markings on it. I don't use the USB output, who on this forum would? It has a pretty decent built in pre-amp though.

One cool thing I discovered is that if you have an LP with worn grooves, or has a skip in it. You can actually get better sound or play through the skip if you press the reverse button and play the record backwards! Then I just flip it around in the computer. I discovered this mostly out of a last ditch effort trying to transfer a rare LP. I thought "well, what if I track it backwards?" Eureeka! It actually worked!

 

Sounds like you're getting the right stuff delivered.

It's certainly worth trying other equalizations, but I always found 78s sound OK with just RIAA. There are those that disagree. 78s are equalized, but the curve is weird and only some preamps claim to apply it correctly. Even then it's often variable between record companies. Try with RIAA and computer process to see if there's a better curve. With RIAA they tend to be slightly more bass and less mid-treble, and that's often not a bad thing unless they really play quietly.

Playing at a different speed also effects the equalization, so take care if you go that route.

 

I find that playing backwards doesn't help sound quality in any way, quite the opposite since the stylus/cantilever is put under a lot of undue stress. but for records that have unrepairable skips (always try to repair with a wooden toothpick first!), that backwards method works wonders, where for some reason it will correctly trace the groove. Just play a few seconds of it backwards and then patch in the necessary portions.
To drop to 39 RPM, you'll need a table that has +/- 50% pitch control, and drop all the way down from 78. Yours doesn't, but some quick math can get you to 39 from 45 or 33 as well, from within your 20% range

 

I used to transfer 78s by using a BSR changer with a ceramic cartridge and plugging in directly to my cassette deck. Working off of 78s ranging from Charlie Parker to Fedor Chaliapin I consistently got decent resolution and remarkably little distortion.

 

Just using RIAA may not provide good results.

Different labels used different curves at different times of their production. See:
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/mixphono.htm
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/mixcurve.htm
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/mixlabls.htm
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/mixcompn.htm

and
http://www.shellac.org/wams/wequal.html

Find your label by year, then find your EQ setting.

More interesting settings info here: http://www.esotericsound.com/Electronics/REQ2MAN.pdf see page #6

There is also software from Diamond Cut (DC8) which allows you to record music with a "Flat" EQ and then let the software apply the EQ curves (they have lots of EQ presets to choose from). See: http://www.tracertek.com/ccp0-display/newway.html. I think you can even custom change to the "odd speed" from within the software (I'm not sure about that).

 

There are many different curves that may have been used. There is almost no agreement as to which were actually used. You can set a preference by ear of course, if you have access to many curves. You are operating a tone control.

The differences between the other curves and RIAA are not big.

 

I think, like others have said, experiment if you can and see what works for your ears and your equipment. I think that applying reverse RIAA achieves a little more lifting the music away from the surface noise, as it were, in the end. But it's not mandatory. For records like you're describing, one can get very good results using the RIAA curve. And you may find it's less fussy, because some of the surface noise will already be EQ'd out.

The bigger problem is a too small stylus skating in the groove. The wear on 78's tends to be nearer the 'top' of the groove, and that's where using a too large stylus can be a liability, it follows the wear pattern from a very large tip old phonograph needle. However there are the later era 78's that track best with a larger tip. A 3 mil and a 4 mil size will be handy to have, though I imagine your 3 mil will get the most use by far, for those records.

 

My first choices were 3 and 2.5, diamond truncated elliptical. I never found I needed any more choices, even on Berliners (I only had one anyway). The 3 got all the use. The 2.5 was sometimes quieter on 50's vinyl discs.

 

My favorite stylus out of my small collection is a 3.5 mil truncated elliptical. If I had to pick one to handily track the widest variety of records with, to my ears, more or less acceptable results, that would be it.

Still, it skates with some early acoustics (particularly Victor) and an even larger tip is required. And a stylus that size will be too large, sometimes, tracking along the wear pattern and/or sacrificing treble. But it's a better tradeoff for swishy skating sounds and the thin, bass shy sound that one gets with a too small stylus.

 

RIAA seems to fall in the middle of the variety most late-period preemphasis standards, which suits me fine. Of course, I adjust bass and treble to taste.

 

I think the most common playback curve looked something like this:





-Bill

 

I just use RIAA and it sounds fine to me.

A Dual 1019, a Shure M78S, and my usual preamp is all the hardware I need for playing 78s.

 

Good one, Bill!

 

Diamond Cut was designed to work with 78rpm recordings, and I highly recommend it for restoration work. As noted above there are EQ curves from a number of companies already built into the software.

Derek

 

Amadeus Pro's last version (before the 2.0 upgrade) was an excellent piece of software. Just a caution: do NOT use the new 2.0. Is is so buggy, you need a can of raid. Martin clearly didn't test it out thoroughly, and many of the old functions that worked beautifully are completely broken. For example one glaring bug that he has been aware of for weeks and still hasn't corrected (I corresponded with him) is that the audio files in the main pane do not reflect their actual bitrate! When I play 24/96 files they show up as 32/96. He brushed it off saying "yeah it's really 24." That is true, but the software shouldn't be telling me it's something that it's not! The old version didn't have this or any of the many other current problems.

That said, the old version is a fantastic piece of audio software.

 

Works in conjunction with their 'paragraphic' equalizer which I think is a nice tool. You can slide any of your 10 EQ points at any place along the flat line or chosen curve and adjust as desired.