'Tone Poet' Jazz Reissue Series*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by cds23, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. guidedbyvoices

    guidedbyvoices Diver Dan

    Location:
    Alpine, TX
    I do it all the time. I can love GBV stuff recorded on a beer stained cassette, or live recordings from the early 70s on shoeboxes, or session stuff smuggled out and copied to the 100th generation. I love when sound is at its best, especially for amazing music, obviously I'm hooked on Music Matters for killer music AND killer sound, but I can enjoy amazing music in less than stellar sound quality too.
     
  2. Mugrug12

    Mugrug12 nothing gold can stay

    Location:
    SF
    Really? Didn’t you ever enjoy music in a car or a plane or something, when the sound is bad?
    I would miss out on a lot of my favorite music (that unfortunately sounds bad) if I couldn’t seperate the two.
     
    Crispy Rob likes this.
  3. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Sure, I understand what you are saying. But we arent really talking about the qualities your describing.

    Pitch variation within the context of music that isnt suppose to have that kind variation is neither amazing nor musical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  4. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Within the context of the music we are addressing.
     
  5. Mugrug12

    Mugrug12 nothing gold can stay

    Location:
    SF
    I don’t follow.
     
  6. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Sound qualities can mean many things. EQ, compression etc. What I meant by separating the “sound” from the music (and I believe within the context of what scotti also means) is this warble thing. Thats a pitch variation. Renders things out of tune sounding. Being in tune is sound which is connected to the intent of the music. It was never intended to have that sound. Which in turn isnt musical. The two are connected to me. If the sound is off (out of tune sounding due to the wavering pitch) then it becomes unmusical sounding. I realize its difficult to make exactly clear. I hope thats more specific.
     
    saskimo likes this.
  7. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Im not talking about not being able to enjoy lo-fi music such as VU. Its a different specific context.

    Sorry, dont mean to bog the thread down. I promise when the new ones come out and they have wow and flutter Ill stay in the wow and flutter thread :laugh:
     
    paulmock likes this.
  8. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    And if they dont have the issues, Ill be right over here cheering with you guys that the issue has been resolved and they sound awesome as awesome can be!
     
    paulmock likes this.
  9. struttincool

    struttincool Senior Member

    Location:
    Anacortes, WA
    Most reissues get critiqued within an inch of their lives. I know the music so it becomes about the sound. I guess I can be thankful that the Tone Poets don't come in 33, 45 and SRX like Music Matters. Talk about a thread that needs a sub-thread.
     
    Harrison likes this.
  10. periclimenes

    periclimenes Hears the tape speed issues

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    I love when people say "that's been discussed here; go read through the posts." The MMJ thread has 22,111 posts, as of this writing!
     
    saskimo likes this.
  11. Greenalishi

    Greenalishi Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco

    This nails me.
     
  12. scotti

    scotti Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    I don't think it's fair to just call this thread a cheering session. When there are issues, I want to know about them and will bring them up as well. I just think there are many of us that restrain ourselves from going on and on and on about an issue. You bring good content to the forum no doubt, and I enjoy reading your posts.

    I also want to apologize about my Mr. Peanut comment yesterday, trying to be funny, I had no idea about the tragic helicopter crash until this morning.
     
    Crazysteve likes this.
  13. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    WOW! You must really isolate yourself. Since 10AM PT yesterday it has been nonstop Kobe. First the speculation, then the awful news which included his 13 yr old daughter, etc. etc. etc. Here in L.A. grown mean were seen weeping as they walked the streets. It has really hit hard out here.

    BTW, no apologies necessary. We are all friends here.
     
    Crazysteve and scotti like this.
  14. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Didnt mean to imply its a cheering session thread. I started to add to my post youve quoted: “no sarcasm intended”. Which, honestly, there wasnt any meant on my part. But I can understand how posts can become convoluted and easily misinterpreted.

    However, if I may add, the TP series have no other issues (bar a random pressing defect, shipping delays etc) other than the flutter thing. And regarding the later issue I have read many posts on this thread that disregard the topic with sarcasm and ridicule if brought up. Overall criticism is not welcomed on this thread. The tone (pardon the pun) is one of “please go to the other thread with this issue and dont tell us about these problems”. So Id have disagree that bringing up issues is welcome here. Therefore maybe you can see how many see this as a “cheering session” thread for Ton Poet.

    And maybe thats ok. Let me emphasize that. Maybe thats the way it should be.

    The only reason I commented was because I wanted to understand exactly what the thought of separating sound from music meant. And to clarify what I meant by the same. Then, of course, questions come from others and it gets drawn out :)

    Like I said, when these four new ones come out and dont have the flutter issue, Ill gladly join in the high fives. In fact, thats all those that have been saddened by the issues ever wanted.

    Perhaps our disappointment is just as great as this threads joy. And really, no one ever wanted that.
     
    scotti likes this.
  15. dastinger

    dastinger Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portugal
    I completely agree with this. I follow the other thread even though I'm not bothered by the issues. It's totally different not to be bothered and wanting an as perfect as possible product. Even though I can perfectly live and enjoy the records fully, I would no doubt prefer it if there were no issues at all and reading about discoveries regarding this is still interesting.

    The problem with this discussion is that people go on and on and on and on exclusively discussing it without even agreeing on almost anything other than the fact that there are issues. I'm certain, since almost the beginning, that we will never know for sure what the issue really is hence why I choose to believe Kevin Gray since I don't believe a professional like him wouldn't turn his studio upside down looking for a possible problem.
     
  16. scotti

    scotti Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Thanks for that, believe me I felt bad about it. Ever since I retired around 6 years a go, I pretty much unplugged myself from the news/social media (except music threads like this) after putting in 80 hour weeks one right after the other, I was pretty burnt to say the least (I would say who I worked for, but don't know if we are allowed to say here). I grew up a fan of California sports, so yes this was tragic, and for all the other lives that were lost as well.
     
  17. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Dont feel badly. I didnt know either until late last night when one of my younger co-workers mentioned it. I dont do “TV” other than NetFlix and rewatching old dvd movies. Oh I did watch a Betty Davis movie last night. What an actress.

    I keep saying “_____ more years until retirement!” But I think Im finally down to the last 5 yrs!
     
    tubesandvinyl and Greenalishi like this.
  18. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    He lost a day’s work testing his equipment in response to complaints from this board. He found his wow and flutter spec to be less than what is thought to be audible. He told us, via emails to members that were posted here. People still choose not to believe him. It’s not that we can’t handle criticism of our Dear Mastering Leader, it’s that the critics don’t know what they’re talking about and won’t take his word for an answer. That gets old, hence the other thread.
     
  19. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    I do think the other thread has been useful. Yes it does go on and on at times. I think a big reason for that is that who else on Gods green earth can we vent to about this? I can just imagine me bringing up the topic at work:

    “Man you guys, Im really pissed. Weve been waiting forever and crossing our fingers for more Blue Notes. And now this wow and flutter issue!”...

    Response from work or friends....

    :sigh: ..ummm ok. ...Sorry...? :sigh:


    I think the two main things that I have gotten from it are:

    1) Nothings really conclusive. (though I lean towards what the man who last used the tapes stated)

    2)Its a helpful thread to keep me from wasting money on a product Im not satisfied with

    3)There could be hope through the Plangent process somewhere down the line if they choose to remaster these again

    Both threads are useful for both stances.
     
    GentleSenator likes this.
  20. NettleBed

    NettleBed Forum Resident

    Location:
    new york city
    The above is not really true. When the facts don't match your narrative, you don't get to say that critics "don't know what they're talking about."
     
  21. BendBound

    BendBound Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bend, OR
    My take is he eliminated his role in the process as the culprit in wow and flutter heard by more than a few on select TP releases. I appreciated that he did that, and honestly, I don't think it was a waste of time. In fact, I don't think he would would have taken the time to check the calibration in his equipment if he did not want to ensure it was not his step in the process. Now he knows and now we know. And it clearly established that his part in the sound reproducing process is spot on. I am not fully conversant in the sources of the issue. If it is not the mastering and engineering, not the lp pressing, not the new vinyl formulations, not packaging and shipping, not a spontaneous problem with everyone's systems who hear it (I do BTW), then the issue is more fundamental.

    I was aware that Blue Note began to archive their master tape library a number of recent years ago. If I am mistaken, please correct me. Blue Note made a decision to store tapes back east somewhere in controlled environment. From what I understand, they made digital copying of the these tapes. And those digital copies would be available to reissue houses, perhaps even to BN as it reissues its own catalog. Could the issues heard by some here, be related to the age of the tape, its condition and how it has been handled?

    We may never know. But I for one want to know after a new TP or BN title is released if folks as passionate as us hear issues related to anything we don't really understand. And I agree, once established that someone hears a issue, there is little sense in rehashing it. We get it.

    In this case, Kevin Gray's line is not the issue. Yet an issue somewhere remains outstanding.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
    timzigs, recstar24 and dastinger like this.
  22. Bobby Boogaloo

    Bobby Boogaloo Heavy on the grease please

    Location:
    Southeastern US
    For comparison sake, the recent Hank Mobley 60s CD boxset from Mosaic used hi res files of the original analog masters. The process involved Addey remastering to 24/192 then downsampling to 16/44.1; with some of the tapes being baked prior out of necessity. This set sounds excellent on my pedestrian system, piano included. It's a lot of music however (8 CDs' worth). Has anyone with sensitive pitch listened to this set?
     
  23. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Thom Lieb and Dean R like this.
  24. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    All will be well when the four new ones come in. I have faith issues are solved :)
     
  25. scotti

    scotti Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Any Charles Lloyd fans out there?
     

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