Topping D50 vs Schiit Modi Multibit vs Topping D30 vs SMSL M8A DAC

As right as I think you are, I also think that assuming the better something measures, the better the sound is quite a logic leap. Specially when most of the time the distortions take place in frequencies far off the range of human hearing.

 

I can say I own a Benchmark DAC and the Topping D50 provides much clearer reproduction in the midrange.
It is also much less "hard" sounding than the Benchmark.
This may sound "thin" on certain systems that NEEDED a thicker harder midrange to give a "punch" to their systems that was lacking.
I use British monitors and they do not require any "extra" midrange punch.
So, as usual, some of this is system dependent.
I can say the little Topping D50 is a LOT of high end quality for a tiny price!
Those filter settings it comes with really allow the top frequencies to open up and sing instead of sounding truncated as they do in the Benchmark.
It's great fun to finally hear the "ping" and "zing" of Zildjian cymbals that no longer sound like two trash can lids being banged together...

 

I haven't seen what you're referring to, but I haven't read all that many reviews over there. A few months ago I was thinking of getting a new dac with balanced out, and was thinking Benchmark, Brooklyn, or one of the other "audiophile approved" names. A friend suggested I look at Topping and RME. Google took me to ASR where I read quite a few reviews. I ended up buying both a Topping D70 and a SMSL SU-8. The Topping is a winner in my system. I've been using the SMSL dac for three weeks still trying to decide on it. For the $130 I paid for it though, it's quite a nice sounding dac.

 

To each his own experience, of course. Mine with the Topping D10 and D30, which I bought in part because of the praise received in ASR, was poor.
D10 was ok, nothing special (the ifi nano idsd is better), and the D30 stopped decoding DSD files after 2 weeks or so.

 

Yes, for those most people. For those who do pick up differences - but I mean really, like in a blind test really, it matters.

That is not something he suggests - it is a very well-known psychological phenomenon called "Confirmation Bias" - google it. It's not even a theory.

Well, if something measures "better" it is "better". Whether or not this is something that translates into perceivable difference is a whole other matter. Unfortunately there is a lot of placebo involved in audiophile and I am speaking from my own experience. I've had cases where I could have sworn that there is a night and they difference between two DACs just to be completely unable to distinguish between them in a blind test in my own system. The brain is the greatest manipulator there is

 

If I had a nickel.

 

Crisp is good for potato chips and French fries and celery.
Not for digital audio, I concur completely.
Beave

 

This is true, Cats are Awesome, especially the ones who like Jazz!
Beave

 

No, that's your experience with two particular products from a particular brand and has nothing to do with ASR. To be fair, they are also among the lowest end products that brand makes. Neither are top performers, but from the tests I've seen, they are okay. Was your DSD issue with the D30 related to software? I often see people with software and firmware issues with various DACs when trying to setup DSD decoding. It can be a PITA with a product from any brand, made anywhere.

No one doing bench tests (or for that matter the majority of subjective reviewers) that relies on borrowed products can test for long term reliability or figure out how many "duds" there are out of a batch of 1,000 units. That is one of the areas where user feedback and experience can be valuable. As an example, the new ifi Zen unit you really like has had duds too. One guy had a unit fail shortly after buying it. Does that mean it's a bad product? Not necessarily, it could just mean that person got unlucky. He should contact the manufacturer or dealer and seek out a replacement or refund.

 

Head-Fi is, or used to be Schiit sponsored for some time.

I'm with petertakov on this as far as DAC's are concerned. They are not supposed to make things sound pleasing, but instead just like the source does. Neutrality however is not necessarily something that the music listeners want, this is why we have "hifi-brands" that make products that always sound good regardless of the source but that make less than ideal tools because of the "fairy dust", i.e euphonic distortion, so they are essentially further from the original design princible. Pro-brands must market their products with specs alone, so a seemingly irrelevant thing like an already inaudible noisefloor has significance, gotta push the envelope. Schiit and Benchmark cater to different customer bases, but IMO dac's that are designed with neutrality in mind are objectively better.

Some claim that the DAC2 was also an improvement in audio quality over DAC1 even though they have the same chip, subjective bias or not, Benchmark's improved implementation atleast made the DAC2 measure better even if it can't be heard.

Sounds like a club-house.

 

Yeah, there is something about that name that makes me uncomfortable!

 

Exactly - that's what the "Fi" in HiFi stands for. All the talented people who made the record already made it sound in a particular way that they consider appropriate to the music itself. Using gear that will apply it's own "sound signature to everything makes no sense at all. Of course this "own sound" is often the result of a bad design rather than an intentional or even conscious effort.

Could it be related to the fact that audiophiles are almost exclusively men and such overwhelmingly goofy cosiness about a particular group of them gathering to hate on another man for hurting their feelings is somewhat ... suspicious )))))))

 

It is. And so is ASR.

 

I don’t really like the ifi Zen. I said in the other thread that I didn’t see any reason to replace the ifi nano with it.
My issue with the DSD playing in the D30 wasn't software related. If you want the details as to how I know, I can do it, but it's a boring story to tell.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to bash ASR because the measurements of some models were ok and then they sounded unremarkable or had quality control issues. I don't mind ASR. I think it serves a purpose and fills a gap in the audio world.

 

I have Schiit Multibit and it does exactly what you say: make the source sound pleasing. And I love the results in the majority in (my listening) cases, even though they (may) come at the expense of the source verity/neutrality.

However there are cases, e.g. in electronic/noise music or badly mixed live recordings, when Schiit DAC does not know how to handle them and the end result becomes an unlistenable pulp. Here I would prefer employing a different DAC, which would render the source as intact as possible.

Would you have any suggestions in the budget price range, say below $600?

 

If you are using a computer as source you can try upsampling those "unlistenable" tracks to 192 kHz. Experiment with different resampling algorithms/tools and different different types of filters and settings for the resampling. Experiment with minimum phase and other filter options. You may find a combination that sounds better to you without buying a second DAC.

Your profile says you have a Modi Multibit. That's perfect for this experiment. The Modi Multibit does 4x oversampling. That means it can oversample to a maximum of 176.4 kHz (4 * 44.1) or 192 kHz (4 * 48). If you feed the DAC a 192 kHz file it will not be able to oversample and apply its special sauce burrito oversampling filter that gives the Schiit multibits their special take on imaging. So applying your own oversampling to 192 kHz will bypass the Schiit filter and let you experiment with other filters to try to get those particular tracks more listenable to you. The Bifrost 2, Gungnir MB, and Yggdrasil all do 8x oversampling. This experiment won't work quite the same on those DACs, but could still be useful.

 

How do you do those experiments in upsampling? With the software used for playing the files or some firmware for the dac?

 

Unfortunately I do not use computer or any similar device for playback, so I don't have any proper hardware in place for conducting such an experiment.

For anyone interested here's an example of music that my Schiit Modi MB does not handle well:

Live in Geneva, by Philip Jeck

 

With the software on the computer used to play the files. Programs like Foobar2000, JRiver Media Center, HQPlayer, have options to do resampling with different algorithms.

 

I tried with the x2 upsampling, and just one track: In Dust We Trust, by The Chemical Brothers. The difference wasn't subtle: bass tighter, everything more defined.
All through an ifi Zen dac that I'm still trying.
Very interesting. I had always discarded upsampling.
Thanks, @Ham Sandwich

 

Sounds like some of the microphones are not in phase with each other. Perhaps one mic is 180 degrees out of phase and canceling some things out. If your source device has a way of flipping absolute polarity (absolute phase) you can try doing that and see if that sounds better. Some players can do that. Most can't.

The Schiit multibits will let you hear if elements of the recording are not in phase. Will also let you hear if the absolute polarity is wrong.

I played that track from Bandcamp in the browser through a Gungnir Multibit. When playing through the browser like that I can't apply filters and things to try to fix or investigate what's going on. I'd need to buy the track from Bandcamp, download it and then play around.

I also played the track using a headphone plugged into the laptop and using the dac and headphone amp built into the laptop. It was a little bit better, but still sounds wrong like something is not in phase.

 

Try resampling to a high DSD sampling rate. The highest or one of the higher DSD rates that the Zen will support. Assuming you have a media player software that can resample to DSD and play DSD to the Zen. iFi DACs can sound better or cleaner in DSD that PCM. And resampling to high DSD rates will let you hear more of what the resampling filters sound like with less of the native oversampling that the iFi DAC does mixing in. Assuming you have software that will do all that. Otherwise play around with resampling to the higher PCM rates that the DAC supports.

 

I'm trying to wrap my head around how upsampling can possibly improve audio. You cannot add resolution/detail/clarity that isn't there to begin with.

I work in graphics, so that is my point of reference. A 72 DPI image upsampled to 300 DPI is no less fuzzy.

Can someone explain to me how upsampling makes a difference?

 

When reampling you are applying a filter to the music. A filter with different timing, ringing, phase. Apply a minimum phase resampling to music that was all or mostly all done linear phase and you'll hear a difference. This is why different resampling algorithms sound different. Also why DACs that have different filter options will sound different with the different filters.

 

For some reason, when upsampling to DSD, the ifi won't work. If I plug the headphones to the iMac jack, it sounds ok. But not if I use the ifi.
I don't understand why. The ifi is supposed to decode dsd.