Vocal sibilance...suggestions to alleviate?

New to the forum, hi everybody!

Cannot for the life of me determine the cause of vocal sibilance when playing vinyl. First noticed it about a year ago & can't get rid no matter what I do. It is one of those things that seems to get worse after you first notice it. I can no longer listen to my vinyl as I cannot stand the harsh 'esses', which is a big problem for me as I have thousands of records 'screaming' at me to be played!

I have had my stylus looked at & cartridge mounting checked. Checked & double checked anti-skate & VTF settings (can't adjust VTA), speed (with strobe disc). Had phono stage looked at. Troubleshooted by changing around interconnects. Just changed tubes on both my pre-amp & amp over the weekend, so its too early yet to discern any improvement.

The vocal sibliance varies from record to record but is present on almost every one. All other elements of the sound are reproduced beautifully (to my ears anyway) except the vocals. One of the most extreme examples of this problem is Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands on Blonde on Blonde from the relatively recent Dylan vinyl boxset. The hard 'esses' on this song make me want to run from the room! It is completely unlistenable as a result. I welcome comments on this record in particular as comments I have read about this boxset have been almost universally positive.

I would greatly appreciate comments based on anyone's experience with this problem & welcome suggestions as to how it might be alleviated as I am frustrated beyond belief!

Thanks all.

Steve

 

For some mono records I have, summing the channels to mono will reduce or eliminate sibilant distortion.

Try searching the hardware forum to see if you can find a discussion on the problem that includes equipment similar to what you have.

 

Poorly tracking cart. Trying to track S4 of BoB should not be a daunting task.

 

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

What is the turntable? What is the arm? Those specifics would help.

You may be sure the anti-skate is set correctly, but is the anti-skate operating correctly?

Dave

 

He has his equipment listed in his profile. It looks like decent stuff.

 

1. Do you experience the sibilance issue when playing CDs? If not, you limit the issue to the TT and phono pre-amp.

2. Assuming that it is a TT or phono pre-amp issue, it is most likely mistracking. Some things to try:

a. Make sure the TT is really level.
b. Try some higher and lower VTF settings (about .2g higher and .2g lower)
c. Try some higher and lower anti-skating settings
d. Your post says that you can't adjust VTA -- does the plane of the top of the cartridge look to be reasonably level with the record surface (if the tail of the cartridge is higher than the front, it could explain sibilance)? If you play a thick record (180g or 200g) does the sibilance go away? If so, it is probably a VTA issue.
e. This may not be easy to hear, but does the sibilance appear localized around the speakers when the rest of the vocal is in the center of the image? If so, it is mistracking.

Good luck. Tracking issues can be a pain.

 

I agree with Scott (oh yeah, Ski Bum too\:^). That Shelter must be tracking poorly.

That's what causes poor sibilance reproduction.

Doug

 

This topic is essentialy covered by a recent thread.


http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=255701

 

Yes, good thread but I think it bears repeating that poor sibilance reproduction starts at the cartridge/stytlus.

Some people try to cure it by focusing on other, secondary, things when they need to look at the true source.

Doug

 

I was under the impression that bad pressings can also be the problem. Not saying that the OP's entire vinyl collection is bad but I only have sibilance problems on a very few in my collection. Worst, hands down, Peter Gabriel's 'So'.

 

Sibilance is lack of head room , check your gain structure and your mechanical alignment.

 

This is great advice. I was spending a lot time trying to solve Gabriel's sibilance on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway on a new Classic Records copy. I then checked the CD and found the exact same sibilance. It was recorded that way.

 

I believe Steve implied, in his original post, that it is only with vinyl he has a problem.

A bad pressing or damaged record COULD be the cause but that is rare and if it's happening on almost every record, it's in the system.

BTW, Steve, what VTF are you using?

Doug

 

I just listened (in stereo) to the song on the box set and an original two-eye mono and I’m not getting the distortion on either cut. The reissue does sound just a bit harder but no splatter.

There is a possibility that you are overloading the input to the Cary SLP98. I would try hooking the turntable straight into the MM input on the SLP98 and listen through the tube hiss to see if the sibilance is still there.

 

But it ends with the speakers.

I experienced a major drop in sibilance with no loss of High Frequency info thanks to getting a pair of a/d/s L400e speakers at a yard sale. The tweeters that a/d/s designed are far superior to most and manage to be sweet and detailed without being :"spitty" and sibilant.

This also includes a better sonic presentation of CDs as well.

 

Thanks all for your comments & suggestions.

Doug, I've set the VTF @ 1.9-2.0, the top of the Shelter's recommended range. Tried tracking lighter with no improvement.

Dale, tried connecting table directly to the phono input on the SLP98, with about a 10% (insignificant) improvement in vocal sibilance. I then ruled out the phono stage as the source of the problem.

I read the recent thread with interest, thanks for the link Classicrock. The OP's frustration exactly parallels mine. I commend him for the effort he extended to get to the bottom of his sibilance problem and for sharing his results with everyone. The upshot of it all seems to be that a line contact stylus solves this problem. The most highly recommended cart/stylus combos were the ATML440a & the Shure M97XE with a Jico SAS stylus. Given their price ranges, would either of these produce dynamic range anywhere close to that produced by my Shelter 501 MC cartridge? I'm guessing not, but is this the trade-off necessary in order to remove the vocal sibilance problem, or are there higher-end cart/stylus available, MC or otherwise, that contain styli with the smaller profile ie. line contact or similar?

Could the Rega RB250 tonearm I'm using be contributing to the vocal sibilance problem? Conclusion on the other thread seemed to be that the tonearm would not cause this type of tracking issue.

 

What are you using to measure VTF? A Shure balance or the settings on the TT may not be reliable.

 

Hal, I'm using a Shure sfg tracking force gauge. Aren't these supposed to be accurate to within .1g? Tried a digital gauge initially & it was garbage.

BTW, tks for the detailed post above with your suggestions. Tried a-d already without improvement. 180g & 200g records sound no better than thinner records. In fact the the two worst offending records I have are heavy vinyl Dylan records, Side 4 of Blonde on Blonde from the mono boxset & his Xmas lp. My problem, though, is not restricted to heavy vinyl, its the same with lighter vinyl.

 

Out of skew on the treadle

I read a mostly fawning review of the Tom Evans Microgroove phono stage that suggested that it might increase sibilance. I'm also wondering what switching the cable from the TT to the pre-amp might do as regards carridge loading.

I suppose it has been asked before, but are LPs in general brighter than your digital sources? If so, the cartridge loading to the preamp might be off.

Also, the stylus of your cartridge might also be off as well.

 

Robin,

Tried connecting the TT cable directly to the preamp phono imput & there was little, maybe 10%, improvement.

The sound coming from my TT is not brighter than my cd player but definitely has greater detail & dynamic range.

From everything I've read in this and another similar thread I'm now leaning towards this being a tracking problem emanating from my cartridge/stylus.

Steve

 

You just need to try different cables I always had some sibilance in my system with other cables until I tried some Crimson Musiclink cables

 

What I was thinking about was trying a different cable between turntable and the phono pre. I assume then you connect to the preamp from the phono pre. I improved the overall performance of my TT setup by switching to captive Canare Star-Quad microphone cable and bypassing the SME III's phono jacks. This not only [slightly] reduced sibilance but overall resulted in a better tonal balance.

My arm—the SME III—is more easily adjusted than anything Rega has come up with that I'm aware of. Using a Shure 97 [kinda notorious for sibilance] I had residual sibilance after multiple adjustments. Using a Scott 299b as my phono pre/integrated amp did more to eliminate sibilance than anything else I tried. I suspect that the Scott handles bigger signals better. I also suspect that there is a steep roll-off above 10k, but the sweetness of the sound made it worthwhile. Now that I'm back to a solid state phono stage in an old Harman Kardon receiver, some but not all of the sibilance is back. One reason the sibilance is lower is that the a/d/s/ 400's tweeter simply doesn't "spit" as much as most other tweeters I've heard.

While it is true that the needle is probably not sitting in the groove as perfectly as it might, there are other possible scenarios that might be worth looking into as well.

 

I'm beginning to see this sort of problem.. as a consequence of the 'mix and match' systems we seem to be (forced to) putting together now. I was able to work *towards* a medium high end system that I'd already decided did what I wanted. When I put something in there that breaks it, whatever it is, I can hear it for what it is.

If I was putting equipment together randomly, I'd never be able to work it out. So I'm not surprised many here can't.

 

I've seen Shure gauges off by as much as .2g. You might try increasing the VTF until the gauge reads 2.1 or 2.2 grams and seeing if it helps. (If indeed that is extra weight, it is small enough that it will not damage anything. If it doesn't improve the sibilance, go back down to 1.9-2.)

While you can probably reduce the audible sibilance by using cables or electronics that roll off or de-emphasize the highs a bit, those steps are not going to correct the cause of the sibilance -- which is mistracking. Have you double-checked the overhang?

 

Hal,

Not sure how to check the overhang myself. Had the fellow at the stereo shop check all of that so its probably OK. The cartridge is mounted such that the front end is slightly lower than the back end.

Will try increasing the VTF as you suggest, thank you.