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SH Spotlight What sounds just like the analog master tape: CD, Vinyl, SACD or a 1:1 analog Reel tape copy?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Nov 30, 2007.

  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

  2. kevintomb

    kevintomb Forum Resident

    yeah maybe there is something about multiple sounds and reverb etc...all at once that even though it is still a sound wave, it somehow is beyond what CD can do perfectly, its hard to say knowing how the human hearing mechanism is. Or, maybe its something totally different.....that none of us are actually considering, if it was that easy, everything would sound the same or close, if we wanted it to...:righton:
     
  3. JLGB

    JLGB Forum Resident

    Location:
    D.R.
    The only thing that "bothers" me about DSD is that there is PCM-ing going on..(wish I had saved article) Sony admitted it was (PCM) in the chain. As far as DSD having "problems" in the highs..it is like you can hear the noise? Riiiiight! Above or near 20000hz you have to crank headphones..and later you don't know why you have a headache! LOL..Same thing (44.1 16bit) is good in the lows department..but..then one (feels) the really lows.... NOT hear them!..impossirous! My take..opinion. Great insightful thread btw! .
     
  4. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    No.

    It's possible you may be thinking of mixing requirements pre-Sonoma. There are many pure DSD SACDs.
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Yes.

    By the way, when I did an SACD there was no PCM inter-step. It was analog tape straight through to DSD with no digital processing in between; the ONLY way to roll.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  6. Frumious B

    Frumious B Active Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Yeah...It just seems like basic common sense to me that you would have to alter the sound of something more to get it onto a vinyl LP simply to accommodate the mechanical limitations of the medium than you would in making a high resolution digital copy. This, of course, does not alter the fact that people enjoy the heck out of their vinyl. That aesthetic pleasure remains. However, in terms of scientifically measurable accuracy and ease of reproduction I don't see any scenario under which vinyl could win.
     
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

  8. vinyldoneright

    vinyldoneright "THE" Maestro

    Location:
    Ca


    That was funny!
     
  9. reb

    reb Money Beats Soul

    Location:
    Long Island
    Based upon my experimentation with CD/SACD/DVD-A/Vinyl, I always felt high resolution PCM (DVD-A) was the least compromised in comparision to vinyl.
     
  10. Another Side

    Another Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Good grief!

    [​IMG]
     
    SandAndGlass and bluemooze like this.
  11. Tone

    Tone Forum Resident

    Not in the same sense that you're playing back an actual physically etched waveform, as is such with a phonograph. You can't shut the power off to a RTR, rock the reels back and forth and hear sound when you put your ear up to it. It's an electronic analog process. Perhaps others can expand on this.
     
  12. jbraveman

    jbraveman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Galena, OH, USA
    How much degradation in the sound is there with production of the final LP?
     
  13. Vinophile

    Vinophile Active Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Apart from an increased noise floor, hardly anything, if at all. This is assuming the record was manufactured properly at all stages of production.
     
  14. LeeS

    LeeS Martini Time

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Double Wow.
     
  15. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    Wowie Zowie! :laugh:
     
  16. GabeG

    GabeG New Member

    Location:
    NYC
    and there are many who don't...you always seem to forget this.
     
  17. What might be interesting is comparing something originally recorded in DSD like a few classical records have been. At that point the SACD is the original master tape. I wonder how the vinyl would compare then.
     
  18. Frumious B

    Frumious B Active Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    There's no "wow" to it. If vinyl or any analog medium were capable of exactly reproducing anything whatsoever then one should be able to take any given CD, cut it to vinyl, make a "needledrop" CD from the vinyl and then come out with an exact sonic duplicate of the original source CD on the other side just as good as if you had taken the CD and burned yourself a duplicate in Nero.
     
  19. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    Yes, there is definitely one thing that goes against any digital backup medoum: the fact that what moves the digital market is innovation and planned obsolescence. On the other hand, I think that the general move towards a more 'virtual' world only makes the problem more severe. The cultural legacy of previous eras was usually left on physical things, if a big bad thing happened to our civilization, there would be very little left of it but trash because nobody left would be able to reproduce (see/hear) most of the information we share today. We are a giant with feet of clay.
     
  20. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    Don't worry, Lee, you are not alone on this take. :)
     
  21. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    I've heard that there are many classic music recordings using the technology nowadays on SACDs in the market.
     
  22. Metoo

    Metoo Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Spain (EU)
    This is why I usually say that, at least to me, CDs sound 'flat' when compared to HiRez.
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Frumious B,

    Do this and report back (or imagine doing it).

    FIRST STEP:

    Take an analog tape, maybe of your old band or something but high quality. Cut a flat lacquer from it.

    SECOND STEP:

    Take that same tape and make a CD-R from it. Then, cut a flat lacquer from the CD-R.

    THIRD STEP:

    Compare lacquers. Which sounds most like the master tape?

    I think the answer will be not the one you are looking for.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  24. Sean Keane

    Sean Keane Pre-Mono record collector In Memoriam

    What I'd like to know is- given that vinyl sounds so good on its own- why does IT suffer some when put on CD? Would this happen if the needledrop was from the type of acetate Steve mentioned? Why do almost all the needledrops I've heard reveal themselves to be lifted from vinyl before even hearing a pop or a tic? Why do they sound so 'thunky' and lacking in clear highs and smooth, rolling bass? An example would be the mono I Fought The Law on that Warner Highs Of The Sixties disc, or the Bill Inglot remaster of The Happy Organ on the 1959 Billboard CD.
     
  25. Frumious B

    Frumious B Active Member

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    In my imagination I hypothesize that I would only be able to tell the two acetates apart with great difficulty if I could reliably tell them apart at all.
     

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