What to expect from really good or high end turntables?

After all of the detailed comments, I still keep coming back to the beginning of this thread and this specific recollection in particular. It reminds me of the first record player I had as a kid which was a little red and white contraption called a "Show and Tell" that had a built in transparency feeder with an associated projector screen. You would buy the story record together with the cardboard slide containing the transparencies and then you'd feed the cardboard slide into the slot when you started the record. The images would change as the story was played. Who knows given the renewed interest in vinyl this thing might well make a comeback today, marketed as "Junior's First Multimedia System". I can just picture some budding little audiophiles modding this thing out to the max...



After a while I stopped playing around with this device until I it dawned on me that I could just play records of my own choosing on it without the accompanying slide show. That ultimately lead to my first vinyl purchase as I went off and bought the first real record of my own as a 10 year old kid. In the small town where I grew up the store downtown that sold televisions also had a section of the store dedicated to 45 RPM records. I think I went there looking for Curtis Mayfield's "Superfly", but it seems that I somehow I came home with the single of "Freddie's Dead" (which I now see was backed by the song "Junkie Chase") instead. My parents probably thought it was the beginning of the end for me. I suppose in some ways it was, lol. I just loved the fact that I had this new found freedom of playing my own music more or less whenever I wanted (or at least until bedtime back in those days). These days I don't have any 45's but I do have the Superfly soundtrack.

As far as the original question goes, I've had a few different "real turntables" since those early days and I've certainly been able to hear differences between them. That goes for cartridges and phono stages as well. I've heard more expensive turntables at various dealers that I've visited and enjoyed them for what they brought to the equation as well. I'll never play around in the upper stratosphere of turntables that some here use, but I can imagine that there are indeed noticeable differences between those and the decks that I've enjoyed. Just as with any component, I've learned that listening to this stuff for myself is the only way to know just exactly how much difference I can hear and in turn just how much those differences really impact me.

Although I don't know who it's actually attributed to, the old saying about music critics could probably just as well be applied to discussing audio in general and turntables in particular: "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

 

I feel that way too. I wonder how much quiet a better and more expensive turntable would be. No experience to say.

 

So youre saying stuff from bad pressings like surface noise and crackles get less defined if we were to go from lets say an SL1200 to an RP8?

 

I can’t say as I dont own a high end turntable, or ever heard one ( we’ll a Rega 10 or something) . I can say that my turntable sounds amazing and can’t really fathom a 10k turntable or whatever being THAT much better...for me anyway. Shields at maximum!

 

Compliance is the measurement of the "springiness" of the cartridge's cantilever, it is not "between cartridge and tonearm". The relationship of the cart/cantilever and the tonearm can be summarized, in simplified terms, as the following: high mass arm - low compliance cart; low mass arm - high compliance cart. Low mass arm will not provide enough weight to "flex" the cantilever of a low-compliance cart, high mass arm will "over-flex" a high-compliance cartridge. Mismatched pairing will result in the resonant frequency outside of the acceptable "safe" range, in both scenarios.

 

It takes the whole package, good table, cart, and phono preamp, but yes, that does happen. Right now, a lot of surface noise seems like it is out of phase and isnt part of the music. Some of it just isnt there anymore. One of the big differences going from my P3 to the P6 is the reduction or minimizing the noise floor.

 

My two cents: a high-end table, and I am talking about the table only, not the tonearm/cartridge combination now, should offer the following 3 major characteristics:

1. Quiet operation - as little mechanical noise as possible;
2. Stable speed - no variations;
3. Resistance (elimination, hopefully) to vibration of any kind.

These mean solid engineering, good materials, very good bearing, quiet precision motor, plus good fit and finish.

The rest, such as tonearms, cartridges, cables, e.t.c, are all secondary in nature. Why? - Because those you can shop for and choose. You can always get a better tonearm, better platter, better cartridge, pitch controller, power supply, mats, weights/clamps, fluid dampers, and so on and so forth - we all know how many gizmos are out there.

That's why many of the better turntables are sold without arms to begin with. SME, Michell, Origine Live, Sota, the new Technics SP-10, and many others among them.

For my money, based on price/performance ratio, nothing beats this:

PolyTable SUPER12

$3K-$4K gets you something you would have to spend perhaps ten times more to match. In fact, there are tables that cost a few times more that do not get to that level.

 

It seems you should re-adjust the anti-skate setting on this one, I think it could use some more.

 

Not my video, I found it researching videos with the 2M Black.

 

What I've found to help a bit with the "whoosh" is StyLast stylus treatment. It reduces the friction between the stylus and the groove. Lately, I have taken a big liking to listening to vinyl through headphones with a tube amp. The whoosh is really audible through cans. It's bad enough on my Rek-O-Kut idler that I've stopped playing it with cans, period. Whoosh plus natural noise of the idler drive is too much for me through cans. On belt-drive P-J Debut Carbon, which is a lot quieter than the ROK, the whoosh gets lowered by the application of StyLast to the stylus. On my AR, the "whoosh" is almost inaudible in the first place - it's a suspension table, so it's much quieter to begin with. I get away without even StyLast with the AR. Same with the Denon DD deck - it's quiet, plus the Jelco fluid damping helps a bit, I reckon.

 

Well I don’t disagree with a lot that has been said. To me it’s the lack of pops and surface noise, the utter blackness of the background, the stability of speed and pitch - no wow or flutter, no rumble, the naturalness of the voices and instruments, and the holographic imaging. I was just listening to a new Alabama Shakes album and the detail and nuance were astounding. I could distinctly hear the slight hum of the guitarists tube amp - something I never would have heard on a lesser turntable/arm/cartridge - and it’s the discovery of those details that make the entire presentation more realistic and “live”.

 

I owned a Merrill modded AR back in the 80s. He knows his stuff. Only one reason I dont own one right now.

 

Don't know about the RP8; but... after I changed the stock bearing of my 1200 to a Mike New Audio bearing and started running a linear air bearing tonearm... things got s-p-o-o-k-y quiet. Before that, I never did double takes, because I couldn't hear the stylus in the lead-in groove. And then, BAM!! the music came in. Now, I do that, frequently.

Bad pressings are going to sound like bad pressings. Noises and crackles are often dirt and debris (wash record). Significant scratches... they are what they are, perhaps change stylus profiles. A great table is more about bringing out the best that any given particular piece of magic black crack can give considering it's condition.

EDIT: Any table/arm that's built with extreme attention to detail is likely to be a revelation to those who have "ears to hear" such things.

 

I love that reason, she is well worth it! Here's mine:

 

You stole my cat...

 

I adopted him 9 years ago from a traveling musician. If you are that musician, and the cat's name was Watson - then maybe. But not "stole", anyway.

 

I think the OP should be aware that an excellent TT doesn't require a lot of money if one has some crafts skill. A number of old idler drive TTs have been greatly upgraded by providing a dead plinth of slate or other vibration resistant material. Also the stand that the TT sits on needs to be vibration resistant. When you rest your fingertip lightly on the TT when it is turned on without music playing, you shouldn't feel vibration from the motor through the TT. Similarly when music is playing the vibration of bass notes should be reduced greatly by whatever stand the TT is resting on.

Second, the platter should rotate at precisely 33.3 or 45. You can get a digital speed controller if your wall AC is too variable.

Third the TT platter must be absolutely level. You can use a bubble level to check that.

 

It is my opinion that a turntable is an exercise in energy transference. The goal is to transfer energy from an album to a cartridge, and create an electrical signal that is amplified by the rest of the audio chain. The question is how does the every sub component of a turntable affect that signal being retreived? Ideally a turntable should spin at the correct speed, and in that process create as little energy and noise from the bearing assembly as possible. The turntable chassis should be able to house the bearing assembly and keep it isolated, and if the motor is attached to it, isolate it from the bearing/platter combination. The plinth should be a vibrational sink to channel energy away from the cartridge/record interface. The tone arm should allow the cartridge to do its job, and not allow energy created by the cartridge to be reflected back into the tone arm through resonances, and therefore compromise the cartridge while its tracing the groove. In short, the perfect turntable will isolate the cartridge and the record from all manner of unwanted vibration and energy.

There are many successful examples of different drive types, tone arm geometry, and isolation bases. I have heard excellent belt drive tables, idler drive ones, and direct drive tables. I have heard suspended and non-suspended tables sound great. I have had excellent results with linear tracking air bearing arms, 12" unipivot arms, and removable head shell vintage Japanese arms. There is more than one path to Nirvana in the analog world. I have owned tables from Well Tempered, Teres Audio, Townshend, VPI, Thorens TD124, and Garrard 401. My current tables are studio grade direct drives, in a pair of Technics SP 10 MK II, and a Denon DP 75 in a VPI plinth. They sound as every bit as good as my restored idlers, and have a slightly lower noise floor. Actually these DD tables sound more alike than different, and the shading in presentation is due more to the arms and cartridges than it is the drive units.

 

I'll echo this. The phono preamp upgrade can make a jaw-dropping difference. A hugely important part of the chain. Get the table and everything set up first. But don't cheap out on this component.

An RP8 is high end in my pocket book

 

Could you please expand on this? I've read the opposite and experienced the opposite. And I think I have a decent primary system that I have set up correctly. My live Blue oyster cult records sound better on my much less expensive vintage system because the flaws of the recording are not as apparent.

 

I agree. IMHO it's very easy to underestimate the importance that a phono stage has- the phono stage is the heart in the vinyl rig as I see it. I've done the mistake you're describing cheaping out on the phono stage in the past but I've lived and learned since then.

And by the way...a good quality turntable makes a difference soundwise IMHO. I started out with a cheap turntable in the early 90's and have slowly climbed the upgrading ladder till where I'm today. I've humbly enjoyed each and every step but the difference soundwise between some of my early turntables like the good old Technics SL-1210 and/or Pro-Ject 6.1 compared to the Michell Orbe SE I've today is really breathtaking.

 

Then what about this?
0:18 Rega run ins
6:23 SL1200 run ins

 

Thanks for the correction, Benzion! It's really good to have posters on the SH.tv forums who have very extensive knowledge on turntables here.

 

I've been surprised just now much difference the table itself can make (including the arm in that), and also where I've bought separate outboard power supplies/speed controllers. But yeah, the whole chain needs to work. And it can all soon get expensive!

Just a reflection, but so very few professional reviews and reports on turntables or associated components (cartridge, phono stage, SUT if necessary) go in to any detail about how and why they were matched up together. It's so important, and can really sway the perception of how something 'performs' - given what might suit what etc.

 

That REGA have rumble/motor noise. Poor design.