Why was CTI Records a controversial label?

I don't think of CTI as controversial. I think of them as commercial. Impulse was controversial (think Ascension, Meditations, Live in Japan, Live in Seattle, Interstellar Space, Live at the Village Vanguard Again). Impulse was Bob Thiele's (The Flying Dutchman) label.

 

Good point. As someone else mentioned, it was the hardcore jazzfans that didn't like the CTI style. Nothing wrong with it if it floats your boat. It doesn't do much for me most of the time but I do like Milt Jackson's Sunflower and the Randy Weston album I mentioned on a previous post. I like the Desmond album I mentioned too, but it's not one of my favorites. It is well recorded and sounds really good. I got a wlp of the album and the vinyl is thicker and has a nice round edge on it that other copies I've seen don't have.

 

I dug virtually everything on CTI. There was some straight ahead jazz stuff (Jim Hall's "Concierto" anyone?) but I also liked the funk that was creepin into the music, along with Don Sebesky's ever-reliable horn and string arranging. Pretty hip at the time.

 

From the Amazon.com reviews section of Ashley Kahn's book on the Impulse! label, it would appear that Taylor did found the label, but didn't hang around long.

http://www.amazon.com/House-That-Trane-Built-Impulse/dp/0393058794

From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review.

Noted jazz writer Kahn follows up his in-depth account of the making of jazz legend John Coltrane's most famous album, A Love Supreme, with a history of the record label Coltrane ushered into jazz history. Always a corporate entity (though it changed hands several times between its inception in 1961 and the present), Impulse! was founded by legendary jazz producer Creed Taylor as an imprint of ABC-Paramount records. During Taylor's short stint as label head (before being recruited to overhaul Verve Records), he signed Impulse!'s first exclusive artist, Coltrane, who, through his endless musical questing, recommendations of other artists and status as the label's bestseller, would define Impulse!'s sound and proclivity toward the avant-garde. Taylor's successor, Bob Thiele, was the major driving force at Impulse!, however, supporting Coltrane through his prolific, often confounding musical experiments and producing records by such other influential artists as Archie Shepp, McCoy Tyner and Pharoah Sanders.

 

Taylor's importance to Impulse is common knowledge.I was going to chime in about this days ago,but,since I don't have the Kahn book(yet),I hoped someone who had read it would have the complete story. Creed Taylor was a staff employee for ABC for years before Imulse! started. He was with ABC as early as 1956. I have the 1957 Billy Taylor/Quincy Jones' MY FAIR LADY LOVES JAZZ,produced by Creed. Spaceagepop.com puts him as A&R head at Bethlehem Records in 1954.

 

I have to admit a genuine fondness for Grover Washington Jr.'s first two albums, on a CTI imprint known as Kudu. These CDs are really hard to find.

Anyone know why?

 

Not sure why, but the first one looks as if it was reissued on the short-loved Mo' Jazz imprint (as in "Motown Jazz").

A number of CTI albums have been reissued through Sony, some of the Bob James ones came out on Columbia (since James had been signed to Tappan Zee), then when Fourplay came to be, the masters went along with him.

As to why those GWJ CD's are hard to find, most likely because they weren't big sellers, since people will usually flock to Music Box, Mister Magic (which also was reissued through Mo Jazz and is still available at CD Universe) or some of his late 70's/early 80's work. If Motown/Universal still owns the masters, maybe they can reissue/remaster it through Hip-O.

 

K & J.J. (Kai Winding & J.J. Johnson) "Betwixt & Between" is my favorite CTI album. Dueling trombones baby!

 

The success of the first Deodato album "Prelude" has made CTI to release more jazz-fusion albums in the 70's. "Prelude" remains as the best-selling album on CTI label.

 

I don't find it strange, to me "Prelude" is a very nice album.

 

And Deodato 2 is even better.

 

My favorite on the CTI label was "Keep Your Soul Together" Freddie Hubbard. Also Freddie Hubbard and Stanley Turrentine did some great stuff together on CTI.

I could swear I have a few more good CTI lp's, but they aren't popping out now.

I haven't heard those first two Grover Washington's, but I bet I would like them also

 

or equally as good as "Prelude."

The first two Deodato albums are my favourite CTI albums and they are among the very best the label has ever produced.

 

I like the Stanley Turrentine LPs Sugar and Cherry he recorded with Milt Jackson (with Van Gelder in the dead wax ).

God Bless The Child by Kenny Burrell has also some beautiful music and playing, if you can get used to hearing the sugary strings.

 

Me too.

 

Nothing different than what could be heard by other Jazz Artists on other labels. Take A&M's jazz stuff before CTI the same could be said with Capitol's Jazz Artists.

The "Reverb" had nothing to do with anything. I heard many of these artists live and they all sounded like that in the clubs that I saw and heard them play live at. Even Flugelhorn Freddie Hubbard, George Benson, Howard Roberts, Larry Coryell, Chuck Mangione, Gary Burton, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Roland Kirk, Pat Martino, my list could go on and on.

 

Thanks Kevin for clearing that up!

Well Phil, since you think they're that good, I've just picked them up from a fellow member who's just listed tons of LPs in the Classifieds. I'll let you know what I think...

Well since Taylor was at A&M before he started CTI, it would make sense that A&M carried on with that formula for a while.

It was just my perception of it. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing any of these acts live in those days as you did, but I will take your word for it. I'm sure it was the sound of the times...

 

Grover Washington, Jr. made his debut as a leader with "Inner City Blues." If you like that record, there's some interesting history. That record was originally desigated to be a Hank Crawford date. Studio time booked, no Hank Crawford in sight, they began recording the date without him.

Grover was simply one of five saxophone studio musicians at the date. Creed asked Grover to play alto, which was originally going to be pulled off the master and replaced by Hank Crawford. But that didn't happen. Crawford had been detained in Nashville on a traffic violation and never made the date for which he had been slated as leader.

So they released that album with Grover's "ghost" track and they had a big hit. That was the start of Grover's success as a leader. I have involvement with a couple of projects, into both of which fold the "Inner City Blues" record. I can't speak out of school, but I'll tell you an interesting, personal anecdote regarding the "Inner City Blues" story.

First off, CTI was founded by Creed Taylor. Creed Taylor had then recently signed Wes Montgomery to A&M records. Wes Montgomery died. So Creed signed Geoge Benson to fill the void, so to speak. And CTI records was launched. For background, the original nucleus of CTI was three musicians: Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Idris Muhammad.

Creed's formula should be evident. George Benson's first record for CTI was "Another Side of Abbey Road." Grover Washington, Jr.'s first record for CTI was "Inner City Blues." Take a hit record and immediately recast it into the soul jazz CTI mode. These records were done soon after the release of the originals.

Here's my personal anecdote. We're sitting in Steve Gadd's hotel room in New York City, near Lincoln Center, filming The History of Rock 'n' Roll Drumming for Hudson Music. (If that project is released, I'll note it on the forum.) Just as Idris Muhammad begins to explain how that record came about, the lights are hit, the cameras running, and up from the street below comes wafting the sound of sirens. It was truly surreal.

It exactly mimicked the opening of that album. I don't have a copy handy, but I believe Bob James might have arranged the strings that open that album -- maybe, maybe not. Either way, the Bob James story was spawned from his involvement orchestrating the strings from the original piano arrangements of Herbie Hancock (although I think by this time Herbie was gone and Hank Jones was on this particular date.)

At any rate, there is a lot of history on that particular album. I hope this perspective sheds light on the CTI label. A Rudy Van Gelder collaboration, that's one of my favorite records.

I'm not sure where "Another Side of Abbey Road" fits into the CTI chronology, but I mention it, in conjunction with "Inner City Blues," because they illuminate the CTI formula. And it was on George Benson's and Grover Washington, Jr.'s coattails that CTI gained, if not established, much of it's momentum and subsequent trajectory.

 

Wow! Thanks for that piece of musical history!

 

If you like 70's jazz fusion music, you will surely like them.
Another good CTI recording is Bob James Two.

 

Yeah, see that's why I feel that a remaster of LP's by these artists and other jazz artists from the late 60's through the 70's and further. I'd say it would bug the heck out of me if the CD's didn't have the same sound as my vinyl with the reverb on the LP's.

Hence it would be like changing history and as Steve would say, they might as just have re-recorded the stuff to bring it up to what one such as yourself and others who consider the dryer sound to be the better.

Just my honest and humble opinion, but it's like if I wish to listen to the dryer sounding UK Beatles LPs rather than the US sound of the way I first heard The Beatles sound on record, I know now I at least have the choice to do so.

Mind you I'm not condeming the dryer sound or the reverb sound, I'm just saying that I wouldn't *CHANGE* the sound of those recordings as that's the way they were intended and the way they were released, and as I honestly can say the way I would hear these artist's play these songs out live right in front of me.

 

LOL! I have a deep aversion towards fusion (Montreal is the home of UZEB), but these might just open a new door for me!

The deal was sweet anyway, so no loss there...

I'll keep you posted...

 

I can appreciate where you're coming from. Most of the jazz that I listen to is from 1945-1970, so yeah, most of it is dry. Your comparaison with The Beatles' UK and US sound is very good analogy. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and make it clearer!

 

Today I was in one of the local music stores and I came across the CD of Deodato - Prelude CBS ZK 40695. On the front of the cover it had a banner - The Original CTI Recordings Digitally Remastered For Compact Disc. CTI, I remembered reading about CTI over the last few days and I decided to buy it. I just finished listening to it for the second time, wow, It hits you right from the start, great music and fantastic solos.