Wow and flutter, etc. Tape Speed Issues - Tone Poet / Blue Note 80th anniversary vinyl LP problems.

That’s an interesting MO but for me it’s going to come down to the title at hand, the severity and how scarce originals or reissues are of said title.

For Black Fire, I’m sure as hell not even going to need to get “past” anything. I’ve got a great ‘70s reissue that cost me less than the TP. No speed problem.

If they are going to have issues with tapes I would think they might want to take a hard look at those that are problematic and see what the rarity factor is for that title. Chant is a perfect example. I’m personally not going to bother with the TP as my original is fine. It’s not an expensive record. A cooler cover ain’t enough of a selling point. And it’s yet another title with reported speed problems.

If they start doing some titles where there aren’t vintage reissues available for reasonable money then I will definitely live with some flutter here or there. Even Black Fire I’d deal with if my only other choice was hundreds of dollars and it hadn’t been repressed numerous times.

 

Keep in mind that most of the TP reissues otherwise sound considerably better than previous versions. If you have the opportunity to find that retailer which will take it back so you can try it, great. Black Fire has been the only title of the ones I have bought where the problem was that bad, to my ears anyway.

 

I know! Well this is the Tape Speed issues thread so sky is the limit! Bombs away!

 

I have no problem with returns or even just selling those TPs that end up having problems.

But at this point I am being more selective and will often be waiting for reports to come in. I really love the tonality balance in the mastering of these titles but IMO while Black Fire was the very worst, others also have issues. I think at last count half of the TP AAA releases have speed problems.

RVG’s cutting was how these records came to be loved. Yeah, he boosted the mids and used some compression but there is no way I would choose a modern reissue with speed problems over an RVG cut without speed problems. But that’s just me.

 

I know, right. Let's see if they feel bad enough to give us a heads-up regarding tape anomalies in their reissues for 2020.

 

Maybe the mods can change my title to just “tape issues” because I revisited Herbie’s Takin’ Off and on the song Drifting there are small dropouts (most noticeable on the cymbals) as well as piano pitch instability...

 

I may have mis positioned my comment.

I thinks it is remarkable how great these records sound. Since they were trying to match the sounds of the tapes over the original LPs, I feel they did a remarkable job. They all sound fuller and beautiful.

Although I don’t notice speed issues , I’m happy they went this route so we can have what might be the last hurrah of analogue sources records.

Digital applications could fix what issues some folks hear but then they wouldn’t be what the tapes are about in 2019.

I’m sure there are listeners on either side who would prefer one or the other.

 

Yes, I’m all in for the Last Analog Musical Picture Show. However, the state of the tapes for Herbie’s Takin Off seem quite dire compared to how they must have sounded when MM did their 45rpm only 6 or so years ago. Did Drifting have dropouts and warble then? I haven’t heard the MM 45...

 

Well, now we know why most record companies don’t do AAA vinyl releases anymore. The tapes are just too worn out. Some people don’t care, as they just don’t hear the same issues, or aren’t bothered enough by them.

I was prepared to buy pretty much every one of the Tone Poets and BN80’s. I’m definitely hitting the brakes, because even though I buy a lot from Amazon, I don’t want to start returning every other package.

 

Well there is always the (high res sampled digital) Plangent Process. You let them fix the speed issues and it’s no longer an AAA cut. And of course you have to hire them or they won’t be there to fix it. Apparently the powers that be didn’t feel the tape problems were deal breakers in getting the titles re-cut.

 

I heard the pitch instability on the MM 45 of Takin' Off and returned it. That was a while back. I recently got the BN80 of Takin' Off and the pitch stability is as bad or worse than the MM. Hard to say since I don't have the MM anymore to compare. I'm keeping the BN80, however, since the price was less than half what I paid for the MM. The warble is pretty bad on Driftin', but it's way more tolerable than the TP Black Fire. The flutter on TP Black Fire is bananas.

 

Well, for many they are not deal breakers. It may be for some.

I appreciate that we can document all the flaws in these masters, but this wasn't some conspiracy by the 'powers that be'.

When the Tone Poet selected theses titles, I assume it was the music and not the state of the tapes that were the guiding factor.

Probably the same for 2020.

 

I have the blue label with black logo 70s vinyl issue of Takin' Off, as well as the Cisco LP issue from 2006. In addition, I also have the H.H. "The Complete Blue Note Sixties Sessions" box set. I neither bought into the BN80 nor the MM 45rpm issues. I shall listen to the track "Driftin" and see what the fuss is all about.

Whether I hear something or not will not be an issue for me at this point. What Black Fire and the "wobble or pitch issues" reported on subsequent TP and BN80 reissues has done was create an atmosphere of caution and subdued anticipation for many. The fun and enjoyment of waiting for an album and finally listening to it had been somewhat diminished. Everyone now wants to be a critic and a technical expert and listen for issues to report instead of enjoying the heck out of this music. There is a cloud of doubt now for many regarding the upcoming releases and unless proven otherwise, people proceed with circumspection.

So sad.

BUT...this is the thread that was created specifically to report and discuss pitch issues so if I have something to report, I shall return!

 

Well... the reporting of it is not the sad part. It is what it is, and people should be aware of it. How much it affects your enjoyment of the record is going to be personal. It's not nitpicking. The problem on Black Fire is fairly significant.

But each person can judge for him- or herself.

But a significant part of the problem was the heavy criticism of those merely reporting the issue.

 

yeah well, whose fault is that?

 

The Tone Poet series is an audiophile LP reissue series. It isn't new music. It's sole purpose is to take the previously released music and try to make it sound as good as possible. Some of the titles, and Black Fire in particular, have sound quality problems. Some people can't hear these problems, but many can. That's why people are talking about the issue. I'm not sure why that's such a terrible thing. This is an audiophile forum. The music has been out for decades.

 

Any issues (big or small) with Hub-Tones or Una Mas? Sent back 2 copies of Chant with bad pressing defects on last track.

 

On this very forum just about every reissue campaign has been looked at with a microscope. Why should tone poet be any different?
Do any of you remember the RCA living stereo campaign by classic records. Oh my!
Sorry, the weather is bad or I'd be out salmon fishing.

 

Was that another one of Classic's infamous pressing problems?

 

no, they got torn apart because they didn't sound as good as the originals.You have to remember this was at the beginning of audiophile reissue campaigns.Everyone took a rip, from our host on down.

 

Hub-Tones appears to have speed issues yet again. A friend told me about it and sent me a sample which is not good.

I have the MM and will compare when I get a chance.

 

Very unfortunate if that is the case. At least I have a good CD copy of Hub Tones. I really hope Una Mas and Indestructible are okay because I don't have those on any format and I'd like to get the Bn80s for those.

 

Hub tones: My first copy had a zipping noise (non-fill?) on track 1 (bookers lament) on side 2. Also a mild warp. The second copy had no non-fill, still a slight warp on side 1, however I am keeping it this time. I am unable to hear warbling pianos and speed issues and therefore this type of problem is a non-issue for me.

Una Mas: excellent. pressing was flat. no problems. very slight warp on side 1 which is pretty normal (in my experience) with all the tone poets and BN80s that I have got so far. I return almost every first copy that I get (long live Amazon!) and get a second one.

indestructible: excellent. pressing was flat. a couple of loud pops at the beginning of side 1, right before the music starts. this is not an issue but I still sent it back and got a new copy. No pops on the new copy. Issue fixed. I don't hear any speed related issues so no comments there.

Hope this helps

 

This may interest those of you following this thread:

Chant (1979, 2019):

Original
Tone Poet

 

That is brutal. Hancock’s piano on the TP is making me seasick.

Glad I passed on this one as I have the original, which sounds wonderful.