Wow and flutter, etc. Tape Speed Issues - Tone Poet / Blue Note 80th anniversary vinyl LP problems.

OK, I just listened to that part on my copy of the IJG BN80, and fairly loud too - and I didn't hear the same wobbling! I even timed the piano solo to check the same places as the BN80 clip.
There was one very slight wobble further down, towards the end of the piano solo on Lover Man, but that's all.
I did not have any difficulty hearing these speed issues on my system earlier, so I have to say I'm puzzled.

 

This whole thing gets more confusing by the minute. While I hope if there is a fixable issue it gets fixed, I am glad that this sort of thing does not jump out of the speakers at me, nor does it bother me too much.

 

That's interesting. You could just have a better copy than I do? I have noticed that it's more noticeable to me when the overall volume of the music is lower and I'm listening through speakers (vs. headphones). I'd be curious, if you listened to it at medium low volume, whether you notice anything.

 

From these three samples

Off-center SRX
On-center SRX
Blue Note 80

The Blue Note 80 was actually the best to my ear. The On-center SRX sounded the worst. I listened to almost all of the other SRX titles yesterday, and the only one that jumped out at me as having major piano wobbles was Horace Silver's Song For My Father. I'm curious as to whether people hear that on the other MMJ reissues, because I know this one was tricky because the tape is not in good shape.

 

We have repeatedly offered our help and even had success with applying Plangent on the HDTracks Blue Note titles, but Don Was has not reacted yet. Anybody here who has his ear we’re trying to get that message through. We can help.

 

Did someone contact Don Was?

 

I don't have a sound processor to record a needledrop, so all I can do is record in front of the speaker (tweeter level). It might therefore sound weird, but here is the clip of the same part of Introducing Johnny Griffin, Lover Man, piano solo.
Perhaps my ability to hear these issues will be verified now, but when listening I could only hear three problematic places - one at 0:18 (this lines up with your clip), another one at 1:14 and one subtle one somewhere in the middle which I could hear during playback but cannot find on the clip anymore.
On your clip I can also hear one e.g. at 0:26, but didn't hear it on my copy.

In any case, I can hear two very minor cases on my copy. I would personally consider this within the limits of the medium, since all other tracks seem to be completely OK.
By the way, I tried it on headphones too, but I cannot hear any of these on headphones, which is weird.

IJG BN80 - Clyp

Edit: after listening again to your clips I would say the off center SRX is the worst, then BN80, then the on center SRX - on the latter I could only hear on variation in pitch, at 0:04.

 

ps. It is quiet now, rest of the family is asleep and I compared the BN80 clips again and I can now hear the slight wobble at 0:26 on mine as well. I can thus say @periclimenes' clip and mine line up completely with slight pitch variations at 0:18, 0:26 and 1:14.
I was either too quick or mixed up the clips earlier when commenting on the BN80.
Overall I am happy with the Introducing Johnny Griffin BN80 LP and although I can hear a few instances of pitch variation on it, it is rather negligible from my perspective.

 

We have attempted but no success as yet. Anyone who knows him try to match it up.

 

The BN80 and Tone Poet vinyl releases which were originally recorded in analog are being done AAA. I don’t think they’d want to use Plangent unless a special case arises where they feel it is the only option.

But for the digital downloads, yeah. Although maybe they wouldn’t want to correct what wasn’t corrected on vinyl.....

 

Listening to Indestructible right now: enjoying the album whilst it plays in the background at a medium high level then .... bam, the piano solo on Sortie; OMG!
I assume the MMJ of this is not so affected? (Nothing like as bad as Black Fire but then what is?) If so then I think I’m out. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

 

I have the MM 33 and can check it, but I don’t remember any significant issues. I’ve passed on the BN80 after Hub-Tones proved such a disappointment and had major flutter not present on Kevin Gray’s mastering just four years ago.

 

Wow. Would love to hear clips of this one. I was really looking forward to that title as well. These two series seem to be getting more problematic with each release. If the tapes really are in that bad of shape it's understandable but I have to draw the line somewhere.

 

I've got Indestructible on the way, hopefully it's not too noticeable throughout the rest of the album..

These issues feel especially disappointing over this side of the Atlantic - we've been starved of good quality Blue Note releases basically forever. Even the Kings are generally not great value to import if you're in the UK due to the extra taxes and customs fees. The BN80s and Tone Poets come along seeming like a dream come true on paper with everything done right, only to have these issues crop up. I'll still be buying those that aren't affected (or relatively minimally) but it's such a shame that there's a snag on so many of the titles, even before having to roll the dice on ropey pressing QC.

 

If it's affecting the BN80 pressings already, I'd likely be avoiding them (being pressed at Optimal with its set of issues is another matter altogether) and instead opting for the MMJ pressings despite being very expensive to import to Canada.

Has anyone reported of any flutter on earlier BN80 pressings like Dexter Gordon's Doin' Allright, Freddie Hubbard's Open Sesame, or Lonnie Smith's Think? These are the titles I've been thinking of getting them.

 

RTI's pressing is just as bad as Optimal lately. It's a complete luck of the draw. RTI can't seem to press records on center anymore. I even sent them messages via social media about it - no response of course.

 

Going by your experience with the TP pressings alone, that's a cause for concern. I don't have much problems with RTI, luckily except for very minor warps at best.

But even then, this is quite disappointing and alarming since almost every pressing plant worldwide are in overdrive these days with QC being secondary or tertiary in their priority list.

 

Until recently Optimal were always the most reliable plant for me as far as getting something vaguely flat, centred and quiet. I've had awful luck with RTI for about the last ten years but they were great before that.

Recently I happened to buy a few LPs done by Pallas (some Zoviet France reissues and a few Speakers Corner/Pure Pleasure titles) and I'd say only one of the six albums in question was acceptable. The others were either noisy, had nasty marks, were really warped/dished or had some combination thereof. It could just be my luck turning after a couple of better years but it feels like all the plants are pretty poor at the moment.

 

That's terrible. Pallas used to be tied with RTI for me as the most consistent but it sounds like they are slipping as well. It's been a few months since I purchased a Pure Pleasure title but the last couple I got were okay. I do like Zoviet France - most of their catalog has been OOP for a long, long time. It's a shame the reissues were pressed poorly and didn't due their legacy justice. I'm hoping for some CD or digital reissues of their catalog to avoid the pressing lottery on an expensive boxset.

 

Yeah this is the sad fact of the religious beliefs about analog and the legit marketing decisions it provokes. We have proven that the digital signal processing incorporated into the advanced technique in the tape transfer is much more beneficial to the eventual vinyl. But it’s a tough sell in the face of the NIH of the mastering engineers who are making their bread from vinyl remasters.. only some - like Bob Ludwig and Chris Bellman - have seen the benefit. Maintaining the mystique of vinyl trumps superior audio - and the intense marketing of influencers like Mikey Fremer no doubt perpetuate it. We’re agnostic, but we know the quality pickup outperforms AAA and that the digital conversion step is benign.

It’s been interesting for us. We offer a gratis test to be evaluated blind by the producer or engineer. It’s interesting to note who and who has not taken us up on it. I would note that where the artist has heard it it’s been adopted - they can instantly hear the musical benefits of the authenticity and the steady groove and intonation - their performance. I can promote until doomsday but the work was granted based on the opinions of Phil Lesh, Bruce, and Brian May. They’re more suspicious and less likely to succumb to confirmation bias. They approved. We are grateful, as we are grateful for the largely positive comments here on our work to date.

But as long as AAA is sacrosanct we’re screwed, and unfortunately so might be the best rendition of the material.

 

So true!

 

My take has always been - if a tape has major issues - go for Plangent or whatever is needed to make it free of egregious issues. If this series has to be AAA for all vinyl titles - my opinion is - fix the digital downloads that are on HDTracks et. al. If that is at least not done, there is going to be some loss of sales here (from myself and others in this thread) as I don't care if something is AAA when it's wobbling like a whammy bar. Just give me a good mastering.

 

How is the blind test administered? i don't follow how it could be blind.

 

Great video.

 

Despite all I’ve said I still support AAA in as much as when done well, a la MMJ, Mofi, Speakers Corner in fact pretty much any bar BN right now (with notable exceptions; no issues with Etcetera or IKB and any that don’t have a piano of course) they still have a significant advantage over having any digital process involved. For me, any reissues that I’ve bought that I already have an original AAA pale in comparison if digital techniques are employed (Led Zep and King Crimson series come to mind, although Springsteen’s Born To Run was transformed from a total mess to at least listenable with the use of Plangent as the original tape recorder was way off).

I’ve recently replayed most of my MMJ titles and they are solid.
There was a point when, as far as the TP releases were concerned, I was coming round to the opinion that these were just the tapes Ron R rejected and therefore ripe for release at a significantly lower price; maybe there is something in that, IDK.
Many here have suggested that BF is such an important session both musically and historically. I would not know being relatively new to jazz and so not as attached to these recordings as many of you so I ask myself, why wasn’t there a MMJ release?
But Indestructible has thrown me for sure unless the MMJ is the same , which I bet it’s not. It’s not that it’s unlistenable, the opener is absolutely awesome but Sortie solo and the first cut on side 2 just jar until the piano is buried in the mix some and then back to really enjoying. It’s the fact that this kind of rollercoaster just doesn’t exist elsewhere makes the experience somewhat disappointing; kind of, what if?