XTC - Oranges & Lemons Blu-ray - clarification

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by neil wilkes, Oct 30, 2015.

  1. neil wilkes

    neil wilkes Active Member Thread Starter

    London, England
    Hi All.

    I have just been made aware there are serious issues with PS3 devices not playing the latest XTC Blu-ray, Oranges & Lemons.
    Apparently what happens is the loading screen appears, then everything goes black.
    This only seems to be happening on PS3 devices, and as a result we have spoken at length to Playstation support who have also given me permission to summarize our conversations online, so here goes:

    Sony have told me that there are 3 reasons a disc will not load.
    1 - Damaged, dirty or defective disc.
    2 - Region/Zone code mismatch (Zone B player will expect Zone B discs)
    3 - Console system fault.

    It cannot be an authoring fault - Sony have confirmed this as if it were an authoring fault then the disc BD-J package would not load on any players at all - and it definitely does. We have checked on Oppo, LG, Denon, Samsung & Pioneer players and the disc loads & plays perfectly.
    It cannot be a disc error - too many issues for a manufacturing fault, plus again it would not load on other players.
    It is therefore either reason 2 or reason 3. Several lengthy discussion with Playstation support have ended up with the following email from Sony, summarizing our phone conversations:
    As discussed over the phone, we may have reasonable belief that there is an issue with your PS3 console registering the Blu-ray discs you mentioned. We will have a further look at what we can do to solve this problem for you. We're sorry that you are having issues playing the Blu-ray discs that you have purchased.

    Sony have now escalated the problem, as they are thinking it is a firmware issue and that this is most likely simply because the disc plays on everything else - at first the initial statement was that Sony Devices started changing the way region/zone coding is handled on Blu-ray in an alleged attempt to stamp out piracy, and that a disc encoded to allow playback in all regions/zones is an unofficial setting and that the intent is to prevent any region/zone mismatch allowing playback. In short, if a disc is encoded to Region/Zone A it will not play back on a device set to Region/Zone B - and region free is unofficial & unsupported, and may not work. We do not accept this, and even if it is true it is not down to Sony to attempt to prevent region free discs from functioning. I said to the man on the phone that this has to be firmware related, and he categorically stated that Sony's security packages may very well refuse to play back a disc where the disc region/zone coding does not match the player region/zone coding and the fact these discs are region/zone free is irrelevant & that a lot of people were very unhappy about these changes.

    Anyway - in summary please, please do not get in touch with either Burning Shed or Amazon as they will not yet be able to help but instead please report the issue to Playstation or Sony support. The more reports they get about this the more chance they will fix the problem quickly.
    In the meantime, I wish to assure everyone that we are working with Sony Technical to resolve this issue & get a firmware fix for this issue and I will post updates here as I get them.

    Finally, I would very much like to hear from someone with a PS4 - can you please get in touch with me via email or PM?

    I apologise profusely for these issues but it is absolutely beyond our control. We are working with Sony technical, as I wrote earlier, and we will get a firmware fix for this issue as soon as possible.
    JediJoker and vonwegen like this.
  2. Eamonn P Keyes

    Eamonn P Keyes New Member

    Neil, I couldn't get my copy to play either, and I don't have a PS3.
    I am, however, using a Sony Bluray player, so this probably confirms the fact that it's a Sony issue. I updated the firmware, but it made no difference.
  3. Orit Friedland

    Orit Friedland New Member

    Hello Neil, I could not get my copy to play either, and the Nonsuch and Drums and Wires Bluray discs are blocked as well.
    My system is a Dell All-In-One Inspirion 23 with an integrated Blu-Ray player.
    The system recognizes the titles, then the screen goes black, and then the following message appears:
    "CyberLink PowerDVD cannot play the protected content using your current display device setting (clone/span mode). Try switching to extended mode or just using a single display device (ERROR CODE = 0122)."
    Thank you for looking into the matter.
  4. CraigVC

    CraigVC Forum Resident

    Portland, OR
    XTC Oranges & Lemons Blu-Ray disc won't play in my circa-2010 Sony BDP-S360 blu-ray player. The firmware is up-to-date, to the last firmware update provided by Sony for this machine in 2012.

    I get the error "Cannot operate this disc" (see below for a photo I took of the screen). I have never seen this error before.

    This is the first Steven Wilson Blu-Ray remaster I have purchased that hasn't played in my Sony blu-ray player (I also have all the Yes blu-ray titles so far, as well as others that Steven Wilson has remixed). I have the two previous Blu-Ray discs in the XTC Surround Series, and they both have played in my Sony blu-ray player. I just put the Nonsuch blu-ray disc in a few minutes ago, and it still plays just fine.


  5. drivingfrog

    drivingfrog Forum Resident

    Los Angeles
    Using the Arcsoft Totalmedia Theatre 6 software (which is no longer supported) and it won't load the disc. Loads every other bluray I have including Drums & Wires.
  6. Ballyrotter

    Ballyrotter New Member

    Hello all

    Here is another Blu-ray player to add to the list of those that it doesn't work with - 'abMedia' through my Acer laptop (it stops before it gets to the menu).
    Nonsuch and Drums & Wires are still playing fine, along with all my other Blu-ray discs.

    This is very frustrating - especially after such a long 'pre-order' time!

    Even though I haven't heard it yet, I know that a lot of love and care will have gone into it by SW & AP. To be let down at this stage must be very annoying for them as well as us.

    Sony won't be sorting this out for me so who will? At the moment, I have a disc that is not fit for purpose so I am presuming that Burning Shed will have to do a recall.
  7. CraigVC

    CraigVC Forum Resident

    Portland, OR
    The Gentle Giant Octopus Blu-Ray (part of the Steven Wilson Remixes series) just arrived in the mail today, and it plays just fine on my Sony BDP-S360 blu-ray player.

    What is unique about this XTC Oranges & Lemons Blu-Ray disc, compared to all other Steven Wilson remix Blu-Rays? (Aside from the contents, of course.) I probably own just about every Blu-Ray released so far that he has remixed, and they all have played just fine on my Sony blu-ray player, until this new XTC disc.

    Though I definitely don't have all the details about this situation, I'm having trouble believing that this issue is entirely Sony's fault, if this XTC disc were authored and manufactured by the same people, and on the same equipment, and in the same way, as one or more of the blu-ray discs in the Steven Wilson remix series that have already been released.

    I guess I'm a little more worried because I have a circa-2010 Sony blu-ray player that hasn't had a firmware update since 2012. I can't imagine that Sony would devote engineers/programmers to writing a firmware update for a five-year-old Sony blu-ray player. Maybe they would for a handful of their most popular players (e.g., PS3), but if the issue that is unique to this XTC Oranges & Lemons blu-ray disc is potentially impacting dozens (hundreds?) of models of Sony blu-ray players, I doubt Sony will take the time/expense to update devices they haven't updated in years.

  8. Ballyrotter

    Ballyrotter New Member

    Hi Neil

    I am not an expert in disc authoring so please forgive me for what may be a daft question. I appreciate that you say "it cannot be an authoring fault" and "it is absolutely beyond your control" but I am confused as to why 'Nonsuch' and 'Drums & Wires' works but 'Oranges & Lemons' does not?

    It now looks like the problem is not confined to Sony players and the two previous XTC blu-rays that still work are also region-free so doesn't that discount the 'firmware' explanation?

    Was there anything you did differently with the authoring this time compared with the previous ones?

    Again, sorry if these questions are too simplistic - I accept that I do not know the technical background to what is involved and that I have probably missed something!
  9. lee59

    lee59 ...since 1959

    Hollister, CA
    My copy will play on an Opp0-103 but it doesn't sound like the channels are in sync. Very distracting and not musical.

    Anyone else with an Oppo hearing this too?
  10. neil wilkes

    neil wilkes Active Member Thread Starter

    London, England
    We think we know what the issue is, and will be talking to Sony Technical first thing Monday Morning.
    It is absolutely down to the software involved, be it firmware for set top players or PS3 (it works just fine on PS4, btw) as if it were any other way then no players would load the disc at all, and before it even got that far the whole BDCMF image would have been rejected by the factory Eclipse systems if we were out of spec or if the image was flawed - if this were an authoring fault it would fail on every player and this is not the case - I suspect the set top players it fails on are also either Sony, or using Sony electronics (in the same way that some Cambridge Audio players use Oppo electronics).
    If we are correct in what we think it is fixable by firmware update - I will post again tomorrow to confirm our conversation with Sony Technical

    Lee - no issues here at all on Oppo BDP-105 and BDP-83SE
    How are your speakers set up? Feel free to get me either via email or PM
  11. marcel

    marcel Alea Iacta Est

    Thank you very much for the warning!

    I wanted to buy the "Oranges & lemons" BD but I've got a 2011 Sony player too and no way I'm buying the XTC disc if it's unplayable... and not I'm buying another BD player just for one title...sorry. That's a masterpiece that deserved to be heard in the best possible way; some years ago I purchased a still sealed copy of the MFSL gold cd and now was waiting for this BD edition...so this problem hurts.:realmad:
  12. beatlesfan68

    beatlesfan68 Forum Resident

    Detroit, MI USA
    If possible, is it possible to compile a list of known Blu-ray players that will not play Oranges & Lemons?
    BeatleJWOL likes this.
  13. ellaguru

    ellaguru Forum Resident

    milan mich
    can you expand on what you are experiencing? 103 here as well, and havent noticed anything out of the ordinary, other than this issue i reported in the other O&L thread:

    video extras > play all > UK "Mayor" video plays then once the US version starts, the text menu for the video extras appear on the screen over the top of the video.
  14. richierichie

    richierichie Forum Resident

    I have been playing the O&L Blu-Ray on my SONY BDP-A6000 for the first time and up to now it plays OK, all the menu is accessible and the sound is superb, none of the issues mentioned above.
  15. Ballyrotter

    Ballyrotter New Member

    Hi Neil

    Thanks for keeping everyone up to date - I hope you didn't have anything else planned for this weekend!

    So do you know why the 'Nonsuch' and 'Drums & Wires' Blu-ray region-free discs work but not 'Oranges & Lemons'?

    While Sony may be happy to put a firmware update out, what about the problems with players that are not Sony? I reinstalled the latest version of abMedia yesterday and I suspect that Acer will tell me that if this is one disc in a thousand that does not work, then it is a problem with the disc and not their software.

    Any advice? Unfortunately I am always on the move so a new fixed Sony entertainment centre is not possible!
    drivingfrog likes this.
  16. neil wilkes

    neil wilkes Active Member Thread Starter

    London, England
    It appears, from conversations with Sony, that the most likely cause of the playback problems on Playstation PS3 & some Sony standalone players, is a firmware problem.
    Confirmation of this comes, in part, from the fact that the discs play back on PS4 & other Sony Blu-Ray players.
    Sony accepts that this anomaly makes a firmware problem the most likely cause on non-playback.
    This issue affects the current XTC 'Oranges & Lemons' & Yes 'Fragile' discs.
    Sony initially asked for customers to register the problem on a general helpline email address so that it can be addressed (details below)
    However, Panegyric has written to Sony this afternoon asking them to clarify that a firmware update dealing with this problem is issued without further delay.
    The discs conform to all Blu-Ray specs & should be playable on any machines marketed as being capable of Blu-Ray playback.
    We will have further news on this tomorrow.

    This will be resolved.

    CraigVC and marcel like this.
  17. lee59

    lee59 ...since 1959

    Hollister, CA
    The channels don't seem to be in sync, like they are milliseconds off but enough to make it sound out of sync rather than musical. I can't imagine this is intentional. On the first play it was really bad. Andy's vocals on the chorus of Earthy Delights were clearly coming in behind the upbeat of 2 and not on the downbeat of 1 with the chords. I rebooted my player and then the content in the center channel was in sync but the content in the rear channels were not. It was a total WTF? moment.

    The Oppo-103 is connected to two amps: I send the two front channels to a stereo NAD amp connected to a pair of GoldenEar Triton II's (with self-contained subs). The other three channels are sent to an NAD T48 connected to GoldenEar center and satellite speakers.

    I'm going to give it another spin today and see if I have the same problem with any other titles to make sure it's not a set up issue....bit this is the first time I've ever had a problem like this and it was not at all subtle.
  18. beatlesfan68

    beatlesfan68 Forum Resident

    Detroit, MI USA
    Has anyone had any issues with the Sony BDP-S1000ES?
  19. JohnS

    JohnS Forum Resident

    London, UK
    If this info is of use, or a checklist of model numbers is to be compiled, the disc plays perfectly on my Sony BDP-S380 Blu-Ray player

    (this is a standalone player, not a games console;
    also, it may be relevant that I hacked it using a universal remote control handset to play multi-region DVDs)
  20. neil wilkes

    neil wilkes Active Member Thread Starter

    London, England
    Sorry to suggest this but it sounds to me as if there is a latency issue between the 2 amps somehow. Cannot confirm anything out of whack here at all.
    Is there any DSP involved in either of the amplifiers at all? This does add latency and it may well be different for different amplifiers, and the only solution I can think of is to set up speaker delays in the Oppo firmware setup. I am happy to try & help you with this though.
  21. neil wilkes

    neil wilkes Active Member Thread Starter

    London, England
    Thank you for this info - I am indeed compiling a list as of now.
    It may well be relevant that it is hacked, although multi-region DVD settings should not make any difference to a Blu-ray.
    What it does do however is confirms the issue is absolutely firmware related.

    NB - I have read a theory that BDMV is not supported on PS3.
    This is only partly correct - what has happened is that BD-R, BD-RE and BD-R DL discs formatted as BDMV will not play on a PS3 because of "piracy concerns", which is kinda unfortunate if you have a Sony Laptop with a BD-RE drive and want to use it to make home vide3op BD discs, as a PS3 will not play these. What this means is that it is simply not possible to proof any disc as a BD-R type on a PS3 - unless you try a Verbatim BD-R LTH type and these are only available in single layer & are still not guaranteed to work plus they seem to degrade after 5-6 months anyway.
  22. CraigVC

    CraigVC Forum Resident

    Portland, OR
    Is your firmware updated? Which version of your firmware do you have installed for that model of Sony blu-ray player?

    I wonder if this incompatibility is related to some interim firmware update, and earlier firmwares of Sony blu-ray players might actually handle this disc better than those of us who diligently/foolishly have kept our firmware updated to the latest version.

  23. CraigVC

    CraigVC Forum Resident

    Portland, OR
    The quote you cited is only a Sony "contact us" form for Playstation devices. I found the following link for non-Playstation Sony blu-ray players:


    1. You have to select your blu-ray player model on the page above.
    2. Then you have to find a "contact us" link. I found it for my model (BDP-S360) by clicking on the "News & Alerts" tab, then seeing a section on the right side with a "Get Help" heading and a "contact us" link.
    3. Clicking the "contact us" link should pre-populate the form with your blu-ray player's model number. Then you have to fill in your name, address, phone, etc.
    4. You have about 500 characters for the message itself.

    I just sent them the following message:
    After I sent the form, I got the following confirmation message:
    I guess I will eventually find out how willing they are to update the firmware of a device that they haven't issued a firmware update for since 2012.

  24. CraigVC

    CraigVC Forum Resident

    Portland, OR
    Describing exactly which firmware version you have installed could also be helpful, in case Sony limited/crippled some functionality in later firmware versions.

  25. Alofter

    Alofter Nowhere Man

    Marshall Michigan
    I have a Sony Blu-Ray standalone BDP-S6200 firmware M21.R.0071
    Works like a champ with no issues fwiw.

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