Yes!? NO! - The all purpose Yes arguing and complaining thread

Well, I guess sometimes we save our harshest judgment for ones we love most.

To me, Anderson is the ultimate example of the visionary artist who needs a strong band filled with strong personalities as a counterpoint. The tension within the band was essential to their success. I find so much of Jon's solo work (and an unfortunate amount of YES' later output when Jon was clearly calling the shots and pulling all the strings) to be unfocused and silly.

The one obvious exception to this is, of course, Olias. Somehow, Jon (working alone) was able to channel his mysticism (his unrepentant seeker-self) into an album that works on every level. As I've said elsewhere, it's downright miraculous that someone who was essentially a non-musician (let's be honest) was able to write, perform and produce Olias by himself. Above all else, this album is a testament to Jon Anderson's brilliance, but it's also a standard-bearer that makes the rest of his (IMO) disappointing solo catalog that much more underwhelming. There are exceptions, but (for me) they are few.

By the time The Ladder Tour happened, I had moved to Colorado. I'm still here -- my intention of staying for a two-year graduate program has morphed into almost 20 years in the Rockies. If I remember correctly, The Ladder Tour didn't come to Denver, but I did catch the 30th Anniversary Tour and many subsequent shows in the Denver area. The 2015 show at the Denver Botanic Gardens was the first time I've ever intentionally passed up the chance to see the band.

Have you read Bruford's autobiography? He mentions the unrivaled dedication of Philly YES fans and seems generally bewildered about it. I still remember the incredible excitement in the Philly area about the ABWH tour, which was when YES first hit my radar (though I was too young to see the show at the Spectrum). It rivaled and maybe even surpassed the Led Zep reunion at Live Aid (which was massive in Philly, as you'd remember). By the time the Union tour happened, I had (under the guidance of an aunt and uncle who were YES fans from the beginning) largely abandoned the hair metal scene and devoted myself to more progressive sounds.

 

This is true, but sometimes it goes the other way, which is the case w/ me and Jon. While not a complete fanboy, I'm probably pretty close.

I agree that Jon needs a strong band to help realize his visions (which makes Olias even more impressive) and that creative tension is key. But that tension within a band is such a tricky thing. It can go from constructive to destructive very easily- and unfortunately, it often seems that the more success a band achieves, the more likely that tension is to become destructive.

I'm not saying you're wrong, as I have no knowledge either way, but why do you say Jon was calling the shots and pulling all the strings in Yes' later output? The 2 weakest Yes albums imo (not counting the last 2, which I haven't bought so can't really compare) are: OYE, where Chris and Billy led the project; and Union, where no one (except maybe record co. exec's) was calling the shots. We likely have different feelings for Yes' later output as we do for Jon's solo stuff. I love The Ladder and Mag. I like the KTA's, though they were flawed in execution.

I also don't understand the "unfocused and silly" attribution. If you substitute saccharin for silly, that I can understand. One of Jon's strengths is his immense positivity, but like all strengths it can become a weakness if overdone and he sometimes crosses that line. How often he overdoes it is not only a matter of opinion but, for me, also a matter of the mood I'm in. Sometimes his Light is cloying; other times it's just what I need.

I still believe the problem lies not so much w/ his spiritual, positive vibe as with how much more concrete his lyrics have become. When he used imagery to portray his ideas, the positivity wasn't so overwhelming. He also has lost a lot of the contrast that helped maintain balance. The best Yes songs always displayed some sort of struggle/journey which only through triumph over led to the Light. This contrast not only is more indicative of real life, but also makes for better music. Sans any contrast, his positivity can cross over from affirmation to saccharin.

As for unfocused, I'm not sure to what you're referring. If anything, I'd say it tends too much in the other direction- the lyrical concreteness making the songs too focused, losing much of the abstract poetry that leaves room for the listener to create meaning and connect more fully.

I agree Olias was miraculous, though I'd disagree that Jon is not a musician. For me, the way he uses his voice as an instrument has always been one of the hallmarks of the Yes sound. And his skills at arrangement add to his credentials as a musician. No, he is not an accomplished instrumentalist, but he's def a musician in my book.

It's gotta be hard to have your 1st solo album be such an amazing work of art- nowhere to go but down. But I don't compare his other efforts to Olias. I really love most of his catalog up to and including Promise Ring, w/ the exception of City of Angels. I think he did great work w/ Vangelis. But I do have to be in a certain mood to want to hear it.

Beautiful out there: I can understand why you stayed. As much as I loved the cultural advantages of Philly, I couldn't wait to get out of all that congestion. And as much as I love the Blue Ridge Mts., they are but foothills compared to the massive Rockies. Had a great time hiking there the one time I've been. We were mostly camping out, so we snuck into U of C at Boulder dorms for a shower before heading up into the mts. But I'll still take the verdant beauty of the Blue Ridge over the grandeur of the Rockies.

I haven't gotten around to BB's auto yet, though am very much looking forward to it. I've always felt he was the most grounded of the Yesmen and also the most forthright. Philly really adopted Yes and much of that was due to Ed Schiaky's connection w/ the band (maybe you were too young to know of him?). He championed the band from their 1st US tour and they appreciated his support, so Philly got special attention. We got full album previews on the radio that I doubt the rest of the country did, as they played all of GftO and Drama either before or right after release. We even got all of Yesshows when it had been shelved and there were no plans to release it.

You're lucky to have such a cool aunt and uncle!

 

I understand this perspective. I have an aunt and uncle in Boone, NC (not the same ones mentioned above) and I find the mountains there enchanting in a completely different way.

Schiaky was kind of a spent force by the time I became "musically aware" in the late '80s. He was still on the air, but he moved back and forth between MMR and YSP and seemed to have lost most of the cache he'd once had in the industry. He still championed YES and other bands from his heyday, but the playlists of the Philly classic rock stations had already moved in a less adventurous direction.

I do very strongly recommend Bruford's autobiography, which bears out your feeling that he's more "grounded" than the others yet contains a number of frank and amusing observations about Squire, Anderson, Fripp and others.

 

Jim W, my sentiments are the same. It's not really Yes without Jon and now Chris.
Drama, hate to say, for me, was the last good album and not even really Yes at that point even though it was a truly great rock and roll sounding album and more "stripped down". Steve only played a Gibson and without Rick, there were no harpsichords or mellotrons.

 

"Less adventurous direction- nice phrase. Could be used to describe the music of the 80's too... (showing my old fart bias now). I was gone by mid-80's but I remember returning and putting on MMR and YSP and being sad at what I heard. Sorry that Ed didn't ride high for longer- one of the last and greatest of a now-dead breed.

BB's book is def on my to-buy list. If you want to recycle yours, I'm not averse to buying used... I'm esp. looking forward to his comments on the Fish (a name he coined IIRC), given their tumultuous yet amazingly creative relationship.

 

I would consider myself a hardcore Yes fan but I won't purchase anything that came after Drama. Having said that, I do listen to Tormato but find it too lightweight with the exception of " On the Silent Wings of Freedom". I think it has to do with Jon's airy lyrics and Rick's choices in the types of keyboards he used at that point in time; it created less rocking sounds and more new age sounds.

 

I think there's some great music the band made after Drama. Granted, in my (wacky) head, it's not all Yesmusic, but still some fine music. And there are some gems done after the reunion of the classic line-up. I really like The Ladder and Mag- perhaps partially b/c I had such a blast on those tours (4 Ladder shows and 3 Symphonics- the last at Radio City just days before 9-11). But what do I know, I actually like Tormato...

I agree that Rick's sound choices are really off on that record. But I still enjoy the songs. Again, I may be biased by the great time I had seeing them do most of the album in the round. I consider Tormato 2nd tier Yes, but 2nd tier Yes is still pretty special.

 

What do people think about contemporary Yes now that a bit of time has passed since Chris' death? Will you be happy to see a new album from the current band? I think if there is some solid songwriting it could be quite good. (By the way Chris is my favourite Yes-man)

 

On the basis of the last album (which still had Squire on board, of course), I'd say there's no gas left in the tank, creatively speaking. They can keep touring until they drop, but I see little point in new studio recordings from the last fading remnants of Yes.

 

I played "Anderson Bruford Wakeman Howe" (1989) not so long ago. A Yes album in all but name almost. They get so carried away with being current here that they are more the 80s than the 80s ever were. There's actually some good music under the layers of (unsuitable to my Yes ears) state of the art production.

 

Absolutely.

Looking forward to the sold-out show I'm seeing in May.

 

Incidentally, in case this hasn't already been mentioned on the site, the band are dedicating the Manchester show on 30th April to Malcolm Birkett, the biggest Yes fan EVER, who passed away from cancer a year ago.

 

Glad to hear it. I don't see why people get hung up on who is no longer in the band.

(I'm still baffled at how negative some Yes fans are... are Yes fans possibly some of the most negative music fans out there?)

Contemporary Yes is a great group and I'd like to hear a new album from the current band.

 

Yes has continually shifted its members over the years, so of course, "perpetual change" comes with the territory, but that doesn't mean that all line ups/albums are automatically equal. Some people loved what Rick Moraz brought to the table, while others strongly prefer Wakeman. Some found Drama to be a refreshing change of pace--I rather liked it myself--while others cried "No Jon, no Yes!". Some liked their streamlined, then-modern 80s sound with Rabin, while others felt that something crucial was missing without Howe. I was pleasantly surprised by Fly From Here, a reasonably robust return from the Drama team, but somehow Heaven & Earth just felt completely limp and toothless to me. I don't consider myself to be some kind of purist, but now with both Anderson and Squire out of the picture--two of their most vital creative mainstays throughout their career--and a veteran like Alan White struggling to keep up the pace, it just doesn't feel like the same exciting, dynamic band I fell in love with anymore. Obviously, they don't have to ask for anyone's permission to record if the inspiration grabs them, but we'll see how many people will be listening at that point. . .

 

I agree with you in some respects but recently my mind has changed. When Chris died I immediately thought Yes is also dead, but now I see current Yes in a more neutral sense. They are all fine musicians (perhaps White is a little tired... but still good), and they are today's Yes. With Billy I think things are fresh and perhaps they can pull off a new LP and it is definitely legit Yes.

 

I try to look at new releases by any band/artist in a vacuum, not comparing it to what came before or who is or isn't currently in the band. It's about the music I'm hearing as I hear it.
With that approach, the last Yes record I've liked is Magnification.

Fly From Here was fair, but not worth my money, and the last one was a snoozefest. And I do like mellow when it's interesting, or moves me in some way. But that one just moved me away.

 

I'm actually curious to see what Billy Sherwood can bring to the table now, in Squire's absence. I think he could be a good foil for Jon Davison.

I remember reading shortly after H&E that they were looking to go more progressive for their next release again. So if that's still the mentality, I'll definitely be interested in hearing it.

Is it the classic lineup? No. Still open to hearing this lineup make music though. They're entitled to make music.

 

Yes they are - and they're entitled to do it without being labelled a tribute band.

 

Random thoughts as its been a long day but I certainly like your thread...I would be interested in knowing which prog band had the most line up changes. Uriah Heep, Roxy Music, Jethro Tull and King Crimson come to mind...I think that with all of these bands, additions and subtractions changed the sound and in some cases immensely...even one member coming and another leaving ( ie Howe/Rabin ) so I did not like their music when 90125 came out...the signs were there for me prior to Drama..."Going for the One" had some rockers but also some new age sounding tracks that were light ( maybe Jon's collaborations with Vangelis had something to do with it )...I also disliked the flaky songs on Tormato ( Arriving UFO and Circus of Heaven with Jon's son speaking in the background "no tellyfloss" ) as well as Rick's choice of keyboards which lacked teeth and gave the songs an air of pompousness...add these signs to the changes in personnel ( and more than one at times ) and that might explain why some fans stopped following them...I guess I also preferred their 70's technology over what instruments and new members they added in the 80's outside of the new production techniques with the engineering and sound boards...lastly, Eddie Offord left and I think with him, a very valuable non- musician...

 

But...but...if you pronounce it "candy-floss" the song works!
I actually like the music on that one.

 

Me too @JimW - Not sure if we discussed that prior! I uploaded an amateur shot video of the 9/8/01 show at Radio City. I saw Orchestra, Howe Side w/ my brother. I was 20 he was 14 at the time.

 

No, we haven't discussed that. Cool we were both at that show. I had a great time at all 3 shows that tour, but there was something special about the Radio City show- just being in that venue added a little extra magic. And the orchestra was better integrated on that stage- at least visually- though it seemed they were more present in the mix as well, though that could have been in my head.

That was a very surreal time. I had to give the eulogy at my grandmother's funeral that morning, then hit the road from VA to NYC and arrived w/ just a hour or so to spare. Called my best bud from college and met him after the show for a beer and some NYC nightlife, then headed back home about 3 AM. Still high from the show, I was in an orientation for a new job when we were informed of the attacks. Within all the emotions was the strangeness of having been there just days before.

 

I just saw an advertisement for Jon Anderson/Wakeman & Rabin touring? I have not been keeping up. This is in addition to a Yes tour currently ?

 

I was there too! in the balcony. Seen the band since '77 and this show was up there with their best!