Your Vinyl Transfer Workflow (sharing best needledrop practices)*

Why bother with it if it's inaudible? Just asking.

 

Yes, I'm sure you can tell the difference on speakers but my initial post you responded to was answering your question on the source of the "subsonic" differences which really isn't an understandable description to begin with but whatever differences you're hearing, if you don't notice that the L/R channel centering is off between the two and that's far more noticeable to me than "subsonic" then either you are hearing things I don't hear or your description isn't specific enough.

BTW "subsonic" from my understanding is the non-musical low frequency hum that hangs in the air around 30 to 40Hz often associated with playing vinyl records. I hear that on your JJGrey sample you posted up thread and Audacity spectrum analyzer confirms a huge peak in those frequencies. I don't hear subsonic "nuances" in your Vollenweider test flac file.

 

DC offset by how much? That's the real issue that needs to be defined. I can induce DC offset by 1% by adding 6db RMS increase in loudness with a limiter on a file that does have subsonic frequencies. It happened when I applied the limiter to Ghost Rider's JJGrey flac file after I had edited it. No big whoop because it didn't change the sound and no sound differences after I removed it.

 

Depending on how much DC Offset, it will be made audible when editing the file in a DAW.

 

Here's the EQ I applied in Audacity on the JJGrey needledrop which I think brings out more clarity in the piano with less off color resonance. I uploaded the wav file to MediaFire but got a copyright infringement notice and just trashed it. I'm not getting into that crap with any file hosting site. They didn't seem to have a problem with Black Sabbath War Pigs 30 second A/B to 2009 remaster and it's gotten over 18 downloads. Going by what people heard on that and how people are describing what they here in this thread I think I've wasted my time.

 

You might try Dropbox there is a free option it seems to work great without all the scary different download buttons.

We used to use Sendspace but Dropbox is much better.

 

Can't remember if I've got an account with Dropbox but I'll give it try.

BTW did you notice the 12db increase in the high frequencies in the EQ?

That's how good your noise reduction is. No audible distortion.

 

You're going to have to download it and play on your system. I tried to get it to play live in DropBox but nothing happens. I may not know how to use Dropbox.

Anyway the following link is the 30 second A/B of the (A) original I applied a limiter to match loudness of the edited version (B) with fade in and fade out between them.

Dropbox - 01 - JJ Grey & mofro Brighter daysEQ8W1-5_AB.wav - Simplify your life

 

I download every sample and move it to my audio computer not connected.

 

In itself, since it's well below the lower limit of human hearing, DC Offset is inaudible. However, in addition to the clicks and pops Grant mentioned, because it's a sign of misaligned waveform, that means it could cause waveform clipping if the mastering engineer chose to set peaks close to 0dBFS. DC Offset can also cause distortion that's inaudible in a wave or aiff file but can be rendered audible during compression to other file formats.

Anyway, in this case, it was DC Offset on a CD not a needledrop so let's not get too sidetracked. If it does occur with needledrops it's easy to remove. As I demonstrated earlier in this thread, if you're using RX, just select the bottom of the spectral view using the horizontal selection tool and hit delete. As long as you keep the top of the selection below 17Hz, it won't affect the audible frequencies.

 

Don't blame yourself. We all do it at some point. But I think I am the biggest offender. I also will knock that off.
But it isn't done on purpose.

But.....
We are about talking about needle drops and the best way to do them. That is a big subject.

It involves:
Turntables, USB interfaces, signal to noise ratio, the frequency limits of vinyl, software, 24 bit vs 16 bit, 96 vs. 192, etc, etc.

This is a big Topic. You can't discuss needle drop techniques without discussing all of this as well. The world isn't always balck and white.

 

@Stan94 I'm obsessed with removing DC offset. Even if it isn't generated by your gear, it can still be introduced by some software, or multiple processing.

My sound card doesn't introduce DC offset, but, even so, I remove it during recording, and part of a final step if I do lots of processing. Not having the offset also aids in processing.

If it's 1% or 2%, I shouldn't worry about it, but I just don't want it there. And, it can cause nasty pops if it's severe.

I do everything I can to ensure my work is as technically accurate as possible, which means I remove DC offset, correct phase issues, try to balance stereo as best as possible, and adjust RMS. Sometimes my work may still sound like ****e!, but at least it is technically sound.

And, BTW, unlike so many people today, I never cut off the top of a file right up to the beginning of the sound. It's like people today have absolutely no patience for silence. Seems like everybody has ADHD! I don't get it. I leave at least .5 seconds before the start of the sound. Old-time engineers will still insert the old industry standard of 2-seconds at the beginning.

At the tail of a non-album file, I will add two seconds. The only time I di not add the space is when I am doing a whole LP because I want to preserve the original gaps.

 

Wow sounds cool certainly different. It does sound good. Nice job on the EQ.

 

I never have DC Offset when needledropping, but when processing ripped CDs for listening I always remove it, jsut as I remove any of the other infrasonic gunk below 20Hz from needledrops simply because I know I can't hear it so it's a waste of data when compressing to flac or anything lossy. Same goes for my rips of SACDs (I have one of the Oppo players from which SACDs can be ripped digitally). Even though I can't hear all that shaped noise up in the ultrasonic area, I remove it since it's a waste of data and in both the infra and ultrasonic cases, it`s voltage being sent to speakers that they were not meant or designed to play back. As for filtering, yes I know there are some purists who swear they can hear a difference (and of course they refuse to do blind listening tests) but a simple null test proves that there's no affect on audible frequencies with modern filters such as those in RX, so I have no problem removing stuff I can't hear.

The tops and tails thing is a personal preference. I normally set markers about a 1/4 second before the beginning of a song and leave the gap at the end as is unless it's ridiculously long.

 

wow that's a lot of boost over 2k- is the original that rolled off high up?

 

When my grandmother played "Edelweiss" on her upright Wurlizter piano in the '70's with Floyd Cramer style "tang" hitting the keys hard similar in my EQ'ed version, I would complain when she pressed the floor pedals which removed the dampening pads on the strings letting the chord of keys strum in a lushy, mushy soft reverb like on an acoustic guitar..."Liberace" stytle which I didn't like. It's one of the reasons I'm a Vince Guaraldi fan because he plays the piano with the same "tang" hits to the keys.

Amazing I was able to accentuate that in a needledrop without scratchy noise which I get EQ'ing CD files especially Chicago's remastered or not files.

For some reason any music CD's recorded, mixed and mastered by African Americans don't exhibit this problem. I'm working on US3's "Cantaloop" to bring out the vocal call outs and brass which are pushed far back in the mix. The cleanest CD file I've ever worked on. The group "War"'s CD files are just as clean with lots of detail.

 

That much boost introduced clipping in the sample

 

Did you download and listen to the DropBox wav file I posted? It as a 5db Limiter applied after zero'ing out applying Amplify filter in Audacity, all after the EQ was applied.

The original needledrop has an RMS of -21db. Very quiet. I keep my MacMini volume slider in the middle. If I don't it will distort applying an EQ (not much headroom). I have the sound card DAC set to 24bit/44.1. Audacity live playback preference set to maximum quality. All I do is listen to sections of the song I want to sound right to me. If I had to go 12db in the highs that tells you maybe there's compression applied on the vinyl version if Ghost Rider didn't apply his own EQ before posting here.

I applied the EQ listening on Sony MDR V6 studio monitor headphones.

 

Do you hear the clipping? Editing in 32bit floating point gives a lot of headroom but Audacity's Steve Daulton told me if you go too far going over 0db it can introduce distorted harmonics in the form of "E" sounds sounding "AH" and other similar types of distortions. I always check for that in an A/B on the original against the final edit.

 

And I'ld like to point out what I discovered in A/B'ing edited music like this is when I walk away for a while like maybe an hour or so I'll go back to listening first to the original and not hear anything off about it that needs fixing which is perplexing. This is listening for about 30 seconds or more.

When I jump to the edited version it opens up as if my ears were pressurized in an elevator or airliner and I just got used to it until I swallow and drop my jaw, recommended procedure for opening up pressurized ears.

So being aware of this I do an A/B on my W-King D8 boombox speakers to the left of me which are pretty much mono due to its small size. I'm reassured that I made an improvement to the sound. Adding reverb to the edited song kills that improvement but it sounds so good on headphones. This is also why I think editing audio is so much harder than editing a photograph or restoring family photos digitally, another hobby of mine.

 

I didn't hear clipping. Perhaps the 5db limiter took care of any clipping.

The sample does sound very different from the original. Not a bad thing. Just not my thing.

 

When you jump back and forth does it sound like your ears were pressurized and then de-pressurized or airy sounding. This is what I've discovered is what makes folks annoyed about the Loudness Wars listening on headphones.

There seems to be a disconnect between how increasing volume is suppose to sound by adding an EQ and limiter with software compared to just increasing the volume knob which is analog. My MacMini's volume slider makes music get louder that sounds different than when I play the file on my home system amplifier/big box speakers using the volume knob which is very smooth and gradual.

Any Loudness War files played on my home stereo system don't have the same "airy" sound as I hear on headphones. Same with my car CD player and back dash Polk speakers.

 

not yet, just was looking at that curve and noticed all the high end boost and was curious about it

 

Just played the A/B on the W-King D8 boombox with its EQ turned on which raises vocals and sibilance. Much clearer and detailed over the original. And the reverbed guitar wale after the drums come in which didn't make it on my A/B I posted here can be heard where it's hardly audible on the original but it's very pronounced on headphones. Reverb always sound good on cans but not speakers.

I can hear tiny pops that kind of sound like hiss or raindrops but it's not objectionable.

 

Here are the two full wav files...

Dropbox - 01 - JJ Grey & mofro Brighter daysEQ8W1-5.wav - Simplify your life
Dropbox - 01 - JJ Grey & mofro Brighter daysSHF_7dbAMP.wav - Simplify your life