Help me choose my next preamp - budget $3K --- ish

A bit of a curve ball here, but I will throw it anyway - I used to have NS1000's, a good friend in Hamburg has NS2000's , 1000M,s, Fx3s - basically a Yamaha nut. I won't even begin to list the amps he's had including the B1 and B2 but he loves Hypex N cores. We both discovered these last year. Hattor seem to do the best work with these, including an integrated. As you know the Yams won't tolerate poor components. He has been gobsmacked by the clarity and smoothness - to use his words a paradigm shift.

 

Thanks all for the inputs so far --- keep them coming! This thread has resulted in a more choices on the list, and additional housrs research sorting, considering…

Two days ago, I nearly bought a Conrad Johnson 17LS2 on Ebay - but ultimately didn't pull the trigger because it had too many unanswered questions. It sold before I could get the answers I need to help me pull the trigger. (After 100's of online used purchases over the years in various hobbies I am fairly disciplined in certain filters I use to save me headaches --- it works well for me --- it might result in missing a few things but too many lessons learned.)

Honestly though, I am still kicking myself a little as the price was right, but have to stick to my criteria... it sold within an hour as I was trying to get some questions answered it disappeared! Isn't that how it works though? Thanks @Davey for bringing it to my attention!

A "where my head is at" checkpoint:

In the "if they were available now for the right price (and was the **RIGHT** one ) I might pull the trigger now" category is the Conrad Johnson 17LS2 and Accuphase 2400/2410.

The Conrad Johnson 16LS is off the list because I discovered that although it has loop in / out it does not have HT bypass with unity gain. The CJ 18LS is off the list because there is just too many lukewarm feedback on this --- if I go CJ I am sticking with tubes (the 18LS is SS). Likewise the CJ Et-3 and ET-5 are falling off the list as one tube hybrids that I am not thrilled about after further investigation. Everything I read about the 17LS (and the fact @Davey has brainwashed me a little ) is good, especially the Teflon model.

The design / architecture of the CJ 17LS/2 has become very attractive to me – the fully discrete, no feedback design to me is nice. Others may beg to differ!!

I still have a soft spot for Accuphase SS preamps and would love to try one out in my system to find out what all the fuss is about and why they command such high prices even used!​

In the "I wasn't planning on it but this thread help bring them back into view category" are the Rogue RP5 or 7 and the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium.

The Dialogue has really surprised me - the point to point wiring, the Dual Mono / Dual torodial design, the high quality components........ the designers and marketers were thinking about what you see when you open the cover --- there are a lot of attractive features on the Dialogue. But so has the Rogue for many of the same reasons. I do think the PL is bringing a little more value to the table at the price point.

I was a little surprised at the Primaluna strong / documented recommendation NOT to roll tubes on the Dialogue, and stick with the PrimaLuna branded Shuguang tubes. (where's the fun in that?) Apparently the Dialogue was designed and voiced around the Shuguang --- what have others found successful with the DIalogue and tube rolling - I am sure not everyone is sticking with the stock tubes?

There was a thread about a month ago on Primaluna tube rolling that got little traction / response --- Rolling tubes in a PrimaLuna Preamp ​

In the “I still have a soft spot if one ever popped up” category is the Yamaha C-2x

Rare as hen’s teeth for the right price and configuration. Even at Hifido and the Japanese auction sites these rarely pop up. My main reason for this choice is I have Yamaha NS-2000 speakers from the same vintage period (1982). The thing about this choice --- if I bought one I would probably still have the itch to try one of the ones mentioned above.

I see these pop up on the European / Ebay market with dedicated 230V configuration --- but I would rather get the US or multi-voltage version. I have step down transformers and even have 220V installed in my house for my woodshop, but prefer to stay at 100V (Japanese market components) or 120V for my audio gear.​

In the “still on the backburner” category is the Parasound JC2 BP

One reason is because I have an A21 power amp, and synergy rules all. These come up frequently for good prices so it is not as tough to find as some mentioned above. (like the CJ, Yammie and Accuphase) Surprisingly, although this preamp gets a lot of positive feedback, there are a number of people who felt underwhelmed and thought the JC2 / A21 combo was lacking and a little "sterile" But like anything, everyone's ears and systems are different. I would have to hear it for myself.
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Just for information - auditioning any of this before I buy is near impossible unless I travel out of state and spend weeks focusing on it..... that's why the choice is a little tougher, some of the options are used and take a little more care in finding a well kept one, and returning it is not an option typically.

 

I love my Parasound P6, and I think it meets all of your requirements...?

 

Bat vk23se seems to fit your needs well and sounds fabulously good.

 

Since you are thinking of CJ preamps you might consider a Backert Labs Rhumba. Bob Backert is an expert in modding CJ equipment and has developed an impressive power supply he uses in his mods and his own brand. His Rhumba line would fall into your price point. The 1.2 slightly under, which they are phasing out and the 1.3 which is slightly over. Wonderful preamp with both balanced and unbalanced inputs. Has two sets of outputs so you could run subs or bi-amplify and has a HT bypass. Very responsive to tube rolling with very easy access to the tubes.

Three models: | Backert Labs

 

This is really turning out to be a tough decision - coupled with the fact one or two of the ones I would love to try are just plain hard to come by. I will just have to be patient, and now thinking get two in to compare. Good news here is everything on my shortlist is desirable and easy to sell --- and if I buy used I won't have to take a big hit on resale!

The Conrad Johnson 17LS2 is an example - really only one has surfaced that was attainable since I started looking actively - and it wasn't one I was comfortable with (good thing too as it turned out).

The Accuphase c-2410 did pop at a place I could buy it and for the right price and I balked --- then it was gone. Note there are plenty around that are WAY overpriced (mainly from sellers in Japan) but waiting for one at a fair price can be tough.

The JC2 BP is around and attainable --- but with how many that are always on the market, how slowly they can sell, then the fact they charge $4499 new for them, and people struggle to get $2500 on resale for ones only a year old ---- let's say if I were to get it, then it would be used and still not sure it is the one I want long term.

It WOULD be fun to compare something like an Accuphase c-2410 to a Parasound JC2 BP --- and see for myself what the REAL difference is and what all the Accuphase mystique is about. Both are SS.

Then there are the prospects of the PrimaLuna Dialogue and the Rogue RP5 still floating in my brain. This is also a SS vs Tube path decision, once I go back down the tube pre road, it may open a lot of doors both component and cost wise I don't want!

Argh............. anyway this is a TOUGH decision.

 

There's a ModWright SWL-9.0 SE w/ Signature Upgrade & Remote on audiogon today, might be an interesting choice for a lower cost tube option, offered for around $1100, think it has 5 inputs with HT bypass, but not sure how it's implemented. Has the ubiquitous Alps plastic film motorized pot for VC, so that would be hard to live with for me, but does have other nice features ...






There's also a very nice Audio Research LS17 SE for sale on the Asylum Trader for under $2000, might be something to look into, I've actually never had any AR products, but they do ahve a very good reputation, including many users around here, it's a JFET input hybrid with SS power supply regulation, but does have a 104-step VC with presumably discrete resistors ... Audio Research LS17 SE - Audio Asylum Trader

But if me, I'd hold out as long as I could for the CJ 17LS2, hard to beat for the sound and feature set if you can find one for around $2500. Near ideal preamp for me, ticks almost all the boxes.

 

The Modwright is a solid choice.

The Music Room is selling my old Audio Research LS 27 for slightly above your budget. It is in great condition and barely broken in. I bought it from someone that intended to use it for a second system that never came together then a used Ref 5 SE came along. It has the upgrade metal remote too.

Audio Research LS27 Stereo Tube Preamplifier; Remote

 

Thanks Davey for taking the time to share other options for sale.

CJ 17LS2 -- if the right one were available for $2500 today I would buy it. Period. Note one did show up on Ebay a little over a week ago but it had too many unknowns and contacting the seller didn't help --- and good thing I didn't give in as the person that did buy it had it up for sale again within two days!!

It appears that they don't come up that often and when they do you have to be ready to strike --- but first you have to know it's there!

What I may do is get something that is more readily available (like an Accuphase C-2410) and then get a 17LS2 when I can. Then, take some time to compare them and keep one and sell the other. It would be comparing a top of the line SS vs a discrete, non-feedback tube design in the 17LS2.

Thanks also Davey for taking the time to offer your expertise when I reached out to you in recent PM's, your experience on CJ has really helped me appreciate their designs more .

 

The Accuphase gear is very nice, always loved the looks and build quality, but have never owned any. Can you really get a C-2410 for around $3000? That would be a nice deal, though I'd imagine it would be made for the JPN market, they get very expensive by the time they officially get to the US. But you seem to know your way around a deal, so no doubt you'll have whatever you set your mind on. Accuphase may spoil you for anything else. Our buddy here @Turntable has the Accuphase C-37 phono preamp, beautiful piece of gear. And he runs some of the best tables in the world, so that says something about Accuphase.

 

Yes you can, at or close to $3000 -- one just sold on HIfido for $3300 plus $200 ship... that is the one I referred that I balked and it disappeared. The past sales shows they have also sold for $3000. So yes, you can. I had a chance to buy that 2410 on Hifido all day --- let it sit over night and by 5am it cycled through Hifishark and disappeared. I was waiting for the 2nd day price drop, but it never made it day 2!!

Also, 2120's (2014 model - next one down in the lineup under 24xx) sell for less than $3K frequently.

Also you can pick up 2410's on Yahoo Auctions for $3K range --- BUT you have to be careful and know what sellers are the best.

That is why I said above that most 2410's are overpriced for sale in the states --- you just have to know where to buy them.

Funny you mention the C-37 one just was put on HOLD on HiFiDo yesterday --- $4K. That is one cool piece of gear. Been looking at them for a long time....... but always slow to pull the trigger

 

@Davey -- been looking at Accuphase gear for a while now --- for some time I was looking at the C-2xx and P-3xx vintage preamps / amps from the 80s and then decided to get something newer and spend up.

Accuphase is not like many companies where into the 90's, quality dipped --- they have been consistently high quality since day one.

Also - you touched on it - new Accuphase gear that sells for $12K here in the US is $6K in Japan. The US market markup is crazy stupid and a topic oft discussed on other boards (like audioaficianado) that have a strong Accuphase owner presence

BTW, it is also well known that Accuphase does not publish their Service Manuals and wants their gear maintained by Accuphase techs --- there is a Hoff member here that usually chimes in everytime the word "Accuphase" is written and laments their service model and how much that displeases him!

You are correct too --- I really have learned my way around how to purchase things and know how to sniff out the deals!

 

I have the same P5/A21 combo as the OP. I'd recommend not "upgrading" to another preamp that is or was recently in Stereophiles Class B section of recommended components. If the JC2BP wont do, I myself would be looking probably at a much more expensive Pass Labs preamp or a top rated tubed preamp. And for me, the JC2 (BP or not) would absolutely fit the bill.

 

Can you elaborate on this -- what preamp are you referring to? Is there one mentioned that falls into that category?

Then the JC2 - are you speaking from experience? Not sure if you bought one or not..... I recall you and I were exchanging late last year on a different thread re: JC2 and you were considering....

 

The Parasound P5 was already in the Stereophile Class B rated recommended component so that's the one I was referring to. You want an upgrade (as do I at some point) so I would only consider ones from the Class A section or, a preamp that may not be in any recommended Stereophile, TAS etc list but is a known top performer. I don't have experience with the JC2 but based upon many years of being in the class A recommended list I'd easily pick that one for a 30 day home trial if nothing else. I did so with the JC3+ Phono preamp and have had nothing but steller results from it. It is a keeper. Parasounds best appears to be quite good and is priced to compete.

 

Ah, yes, the P5..... I thought you were referring to one that is on my short list!

I will say the P5 has served me admirably --- it is surprisingly good as you know since you own one too. As mentioned, I do own three Parasound components at the moment (A21, P5 and 2125 v2) and I do think they bring great value --- but we differ on the "priced to compete" aspect as it relates to the JC2 BP. The $4495 price tag on the JC2 BP IMHO is too high relatively speaking -- and that is evidenced by the fact they lowered the price to $3495 late last year to get them moving, and they still were slow to sell. Then more importantly, resale -- there is one out there now that is three months old and had trouble fetching $2800, and went for $2500 I believe. There is another sitting At $2800 that is a year old and not moving.

The ones that sell quick are cycling toward $2k for older ones and $2500 for newer ones. Then they don't move quickly.... I have seen some sit for a while before selling.

Don't get me wrong - the JC2 BP is a good preamp, but value-wise I would opt for a well kept used one if going that route, then move it along if not satisfied --- the in-home trial is great, but I wouldn't feel right doing that because I just can't pay $4495 for it - it is too much and I mean that from a value perspective. Then if buying new, opening the box is an instant 40% hit in value.

 

The CJ actually ticks all the boxes --- the only thing I wish it had was balanced in or out option --- but being an all discrete, non-feedback design I am OK with the purist RCA approach. The more I read up on this choice the more I like the possibility.

I just wonder how long I will have to wait..... that might be its only drawback, at some point patience wears thin if they don't pop. There just aren't that many out there and I am not the only one looking for one!

 

Here's another interesting contender in the field, it's been around so long gets kind of forgotten, maybe not quite for you but the more recent Audible Illusions preamps are really nice. They have gotten a bit on the pricey side, and I've heard delivery can be sketchy, but there's a refurbished M3B on audiogon right now with phono stage and warranty for $2200, and they do have pretty nice phono stages, the gain structure has always been a bit odd since the phono is only 28 dB, but the preamp has 30 dB gain so comes out fine overall ...

 

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This recently has come into view for me --- I like the full Class A and non-feedback design.

I see you ended up with the Ref5 in the end. Nice!

One of the knocks in a couple of reviews, discussions out there is the LS27 lacks "dynamics and bass" (like the Whathifi review) Any merits there?

What made you decide to upgrade??

Thanks in advance.

 

Another question if you don't mind -- the LS27 has a "Processor" input that is intended for HT / bypass type operation -- I have read in a couple of places that it has "unity gain" which is what I want. The problem is the LS-27 Manual is not much help and trying to trust but verify!

Did you buy the LS-27 with the intent of using the HT bypass too? (I know you said you never had a chance to use it)

 

The LS27 is a very nice line stage and mated very well with the ARC VS-115 I had when I got it. A vintage tube had gone bad in the Modwright Anniversary line stage I had and I was interested in going balanced out to the power amp. As they say one upgrade begets another and the VS-115 was replaced by a Ref 75. I never really felt the LS27 lacked dynamics and bass until the Ref 5 had about 50 hours on the SE upgrade (the unit I bought had just returned from the SE upgrade). Let's face it the Ref 5 SE is in a different class and retailed for almost twice what the LS27 did...these things are relative. The Modwright had a warmer/tubier sound but the LS27 was quieter with a more exact soundstage and better transient detail.

I made some other upgrades (Soundsmith Paua cartridge replaced the Soundsmith Zephyr II, Modwright PH 9.0 replaced the Manley Chinook, and Black Cat Matrix II interconnects replaced Black Cat Lectraline XE interconnects in my phono chain) and started reading about the Ref 5 SE...About that time time I figured out a decent tax refund was coming my and came across a Ref 5 SE listing on Audiogon that seemed like a good deal; I think it had been the dealer's personal unit and am sure he got a price break on the upgrade. I knew it had new tubes and I wouldn't have to worry about replacing them for a few years so here I am.

Sadly for my wallet my upgrades were not done. I just took delivery of a Ref 75 SE Monday.

I am 2 channel only these and did not try to use the HT bypass on it. You may want to call ARC and see what they say.

 

Thank you for the detailed response! I went out and did some diligence on the LS27 --- and YES the bypass feature is with unity gain so it is something that would meet my requirement.

But after digging more I found that the Ref 3 (and Ref5) were actually more to the level I was looking --- the Ref 5 was out of my price range but was attracted to the Ref 3, but it is still around $4K at the low point!!

These look very nice and get great reviews! That Ref5 you have must be sweet!!! And the Ref 75 SE too...... dang that is an end game set up there......

 

Update:::: Looks like I may have made my decision. A Japanese seller notified me of the availability of a Accuphase c-2410 that is in my price range, and it looks like I am going to jump on it.

I will probably keep my eyes peeled for a CJ 17LS2 in the meantime and may buy that and compare that long term..... but starting out with the Accuphase most likely.

I will post pics once it arrives. I know it is definitely something not many around here have..... It will be fun trying it out. And hey, if for any reason it does not appeal to me, resale is pretty easy on these.

 

Nicely done, hope it works out for the best, beautiful piece of gear!

 

Well, a little late, but I’ll add my comments anyway. I would have recommended a used JC2. Owned one for ten years, and a huge improvement over the 5. Used in this case is not an issue as Parasound is tops when it comes to supporting their products, whether or not you are the original owner. I moved back to tubes, PrimaLuna for power and pre, and after lots of experimenting have concluded that they work best with other PL products, and tube rolling often leads to worse performance, not better. But it sounds like you’ve made a wise choice.

John K